Confessions of a Polluted Mindset - Really, Matt?

The Weekly Packers Brain Drain from Jersey Al.

 

Light Boxes and two-shell - So I guess this started (for me) with this:

 

Jason Wilde took up the mantle and evidently uttered the wrong phrase (2 down linemen) to LaFleur and he goes off:

LaFleur:

So, LaFleur contends that edge rushers are the same as "down linemen" in nickel defense. First, when I complain about this scenario. I don't say "down linemen" I say "defensive linemen" to distinguish between the 300 lb run stuffers and 250 lb pass rushers. Whether they are in a two point or three point stance doesn't matter that much to me. What does matter is where they are lining up. If they are on the outside shoulder of the offensive tackle, which they almost always are, they are pass rushers with run responsibility to protect the outside edges. Unless untouched, they are not going to make plays on inside handoffs, which is where the Packers have been taken advantage of in short yardage, especially goal line situations.

Next he says that "us in this profession" view outside linebackers in nickel as defensive linemen. That would be all well and good if you line them up on the tackle's inside shoulder. He says people are exposing themselves when they complain about two down linemen. Maybe I am. I don't pretend to be anything more than a fan. Or maybe it's just semantics. Or maybe LaFleur just isn't willing to criticize the approach and his defensive coordinator publicly. Maybe he's delusional, because you are not setup to stop the run in nickel, whatever name you're giving to your edge rushers.

LaFleur then says the "3-4 defense is our base defense." Really? Hasn't it been true for years now that they are in nickle more than any other alignment? To examine when they were in base versus nickel, I did a quick study and tracked every play in the first half. The Packers' defense lined up for 30 plays. They were in nickel 23 times (76.67%), base 3-4 six times (20%) and 1DL once (3.33%). 

He then tries to explain why they consider the OLBs to be down linemen in nickel by asking "would you want a running back blocking that guy," meaning the OLB as that "guy.". His likely intent is to point out that the OLBs should be considered linemen and you would not want your running back blocking linemen. But when would you ever want running backs blocking those outside guys, regardless of scheme? This falls flat for me.

In the end, he can call it what he wants, defend it how he likes, but for me, it comes down to situational football and that's where they're getting it wrong. To start, your upcoming opponent ia a team with a young quarterback who has not shown the ability to be dangerous throwing the ball downfield. You have a team that wants to be run-first for that very reason and you admit that you fully expected them to come in and try to run the ball. The Steelers have had had little success scoring points in the first half of games. So you come out of the gate and your approach is to stay predominantly in nickel with two high safeties to protect against explosives the Steelers have shown little ability to execute? And you do that in a goal line situation, leaving large gaps in your defensive line for a running back to run through untouched? And also doing the same in four 1-yard to go situations (see below)? This was the plan? Really Matt?

1st and goal - 2DL
3rd and 1 - 3DL
2nd and 1 - 2DL
3rd and 1 - 2DL
3rd and 1 - 2DL
4th and 1 - 2DL

Other topics:

What to do about Watson - For one thing, give some of those jump ball opportunities to Dontayvion Wicks. If I remember correctly (always a crapshoot), one of his scouting report strengths was ability to high-point the ball and he also possesses a 39" vertical jump. He's not as fast as Watson, but what good does more speed do if you don't bring the ball down? As for Watson, I see a few problems. First is tracking the ball on the long passes. If the ball is not laid out clearly in front of him, he seems to misjudge the point where the ball will become catchable. The result is he's never high-pointing the ball, and in many cases is falling backwards as the ball arrives, negating any height/reach advantage he has on the defensive backs. Next, it seems like confidence has become a bit of an issue as he may be feeling the pressure of WR1 expectations.  The Packers should scheme some other routes for him that have a higher completion probability and rebuild that confidence. Finally, it also looks like he's hurrying his routes, the first Pitt interception being a prime example. It's an out and up and he does little to make Peterson think he should cover the out. He might be a little too in love with and anxious to use his speed to win. I would work with him on fundamentals, the first of which is completing each aspect of his routes correctly.

Musgrave - The budding :Love - Musgrave chemistry is probably the highlight of this game for me. It was great to see Musgrave targeted with impactful routes and not just dumpoffs.

Blunders - There were more blunders in this game. Perhaps fewer than previous games. but ones that directly affected the outcome. Deguara in a trance on the extra point team ultimately meant the Packers were tasked with desperate touchdown attempts at the very end instead of kicking a game-tying field goal. Aaron Jones, of all people, having a brain fart and not getting out of bounds, likely depriving the Packers of at least two more plays to finish out the game. And finally, we have the referees and the video review team, who are evidently not able to draw a straight line between two points. 

In the end, while we have plenty to complain about, we are seeing some signs of a light at the end of the tunnel. And that's about all we can expect from the 2023 Packers. Just keep moving closer to that light.

 

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__________________________

"Jersey Al" Bracco is the Editor-In-Chief, part owner and wearer of many hats for CheeseheadTV.com and PackersTalk.com. He is also a recovering Mason Crosby truther.  Follow Al on twitter at @JerseyalGBP

__________________________

22 points
 

Comments (157)

Fan-Friendly This filter will hide comments which have ratio of 5 to 1 down-vote to up-vote.
packerbackerjim's picture

November 15, 2023 at 06:17 am

The Bills managed to fire their OC mid-season, there is little reason to think GB couldn’t shitcan Barry. Although to be fair, the Bills think they can still salvage their season.

15 points
16
1
SinceLombardi's picture

November 15, 2023 at 07:18 am

It will be interesting to see how we’ll Dorsey’s firing works out. In games 2,3,& 4 there were no complaints about him.

4 points
4
0
dobber's picture

November 15, 2023 at 07:26 am

True, but we don't know the dynamic behind closed doors and with ownership, and that may have been strained. This kind of move feels like a "pressure from above" kind of move, which doesn't bode well for McDermott if they just waffle through the rest of the schedule.

5 points
5
0
TKWorldWide's picture

November 15, 2023 at 07:39 am

Yesterday John Kuhn mentioned that an in season firing like this can also indicate the players are not sold on the coach’s approach.
Just a possibility.

6 points
6
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BAMABADGER's picture

November 15, 2023 at 08:08 am

So the players are sold on the D coach's approach???

4 points
5
1
TKWorldWide's picture

November 15, 2023 at 09:59 am

It was in reference to Buffalo firing their offensive coordinator in midseason. He was saying that an in-season firing sometimes means the coach has “lost” his players.
Does Buffalo firing their OC mean that GB’s defensive players are “sold” on Barry?
Mind blown.

4 points
4
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RCPackerFan's picture

November 15, 2023 at 09:29 am

It can also mean the HC feels pressure to have a scapegoat.

5 points
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Packerpasty's picture

November 15, 2023 at 11:57 am

true...I think the shine has come off of McDermott too....they have a lot of talent on that team to play like they do...

4 points
4
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Cheezehead72's picture

November 15, 2023 at 07:34 am

I agree that we should fire Berry now. We should not keep him next year so why keep him the rest of this year. We need to give one of the position coaches a chance to show what they have and can do.

8 points
10
2
dobber's picture

November 15, 2023 at 08:13 am

I would argue that it's not about giving another coach a chance to show what they can do, but rather putting a structure in place that allows your players to get better. I might argue that elevating an inexperienced position coach might make things worse on all fronts...but you're right in that they know what they have in Barry. At 3-6, they're pretty much washed out of it...success MAY still be measured in wins, but it's more about individual growth and performance at this stage.

11 points
11
0
Since'75's picture

November 15, 2023 at 08:59 am

I heard MLF's presser on The Game.

I heard two things that pissed me off because they were insults from him....

When he said "those of us in the profession"

And " people are exposing themselves".

For anyone that needs to be told......

He's calling outsiders stupid.
He's calling 'us' stupid.

There is no gray area here, it is what it is.

F him and his condescension.

If you're wondering why that bothers me so much, it's because it is us, who pay $50 to park a car at Lambeau.
Lambeau Field has capacity for 3,000 cars, do the math, to park on their precious concrete

It's us who take a family of 4 to a football game for $500 - $1000.

It's the fans who have bought literally hundreds of millions of dollars for a piece of paper pretending that we're owners.

It's the fans who spend way too much money on seriously overpriced merchandise.

It's the fans who makes the millions they earn even possible.

Then they still want to charge me for going down a slide?....lol
I don't think that's going to happen.
************
And then after all that, the coach is going to talk down to and insult the fans.....?

I don't f...k'n think so!!

Not to me he isn't.
F him.
****************
This team doesn't have HOF QB's anymore.
This team isn't winning anymore.

Ditch the high n mighty arrogance.

The only people getting "exposed" are the missteps in management, and the head coaches lack of coaching talent.

Favre and Rodgers covered up a lot of flaws, they aren't here anymore...better check yourself.

16 points
23
7
Razer's picture

November 15, 2023 at 09:28 am

...And then after all that, the coach is going to talk down to and insult the fans...

It is what bothers me as well. I generally don't like when people second guess me but with a little patience, I can be objective about my plan or performance. The Packers are chronically weak against the run and this Steeler game showed the true cost once again. Matt LaFleur shouldn't be burning the bridge with the fans with the "us professionals" attitude. In some ways I feel sorry for him because he can't say that we have a lack of talent in D-linemen so we keep our best guys on the field despite the situation. Either way, they need to at least try to give the illusion of run defense a chance.

4 points
6
2
Since'75's picture

November 15, 2023 at 09:38 am

This reminded me a little bit of when McCarthy used to get salty with the Packers beat reporters, but then always act real nice in front of the National media.
*******************
Here's another thing about it.

He tries to parse his words it out, trying to somehow justify (defend) it.

How do you defend something that clearly isn't working?

How do you give up 205 rushing yards, and then talk down to people like they don't have a clue?

I'm surprised someone didn't walk up to MLF during his presser and whisper in his ear that his defense gave up 205 yards rushing.

Clearly, he didn't know this, with that level of arrogance.

Usually people act all high n mighty in success.
MLF does it in failure.

Read the f k'n room a little pal.

7 points
9
2
MainePackFan's picture

November 15, 2023 at 01:05 pm

Since'75, with all due respect, allow me to play Devil's Advocate for just a minute. After all, if everyone just writes different versions of the same thing it can get a little stale : )

Let's pretend for a second that Matt Lafleur is a human being, and perhaps frustration under the circumstances is at least somewhat understandable .

He's been handed an incredibly young team by his FO. The veterans he does have on the roster have been injured and/or have underperformed. The one veteran who was performing to the level of expectation is traded.

He is 3-6 with 4 of the losses determined by 5 points or less. Two of those 4 losses ended with interceptions in the opponents end zone. Yet in spite of all this, he seems to have held the team together. Up to this point, they have not quit on him, and for that he deserves some credit.

Reporters have a job to do. They ask questions. Sometimes they're good questions and sometimes they aren't. It's part of the gig for a HC in the NFL to stand at the presser and answer those questions. It isn't always pretty, and that applies to all HC's as we have seen over the years. I get all of that.

Matt has taken his share of criticism this year, and in many cases, deservedly so. However, this question came off a game where the defense missed 16 tackles. If your team misses 16 tackles, it seems like the wrong time to ask the coach why he is so stupid as to play only 2 down lineman.

In my opinion, the condescending attitude was to the reporter who asked the question. I see no reason for any of us to take it personally. I get the frustrated response regardless of whether or not I agree with the question.

0 points
3
3
Minniman's picture

November 15, 2023 at 01:46 pm

It is said that anger and alcohol are the two truth serums.

To your point, he should stay with the "agree, we need to get better" response.

The root cause of this frustration is the real intriguing part - is Joe Barry not getting fired because MLF is not allowed to fire him.... and this is what frustrates the heck out of him?

P.S Great points about the closeness of games. They aren't getting clobbered week-on-week, so that's a small positive.

2 points
2
0
MainePackFan's picture

November 15, 2023 at 02:22 pm

Minniman. I think what Lafleur said and what he wanted to say are probably two different things. At the end of the day, it makes no difference what defense you are in if the players don't make the tackles they are in position to make.

As bad as we may think this team is, they are a couple plays/penalties away from being 7-2 or 6-3. The issues, more often than not, are self-induced. That is where much of the frustration comes from. Considering how young this team is, it wasn't unexpected. We can only hope it gets cleaned up before the end of the season.

1 points
1
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Since'75's picture

November 15, 2023 at 07:18 pm

Maine....if were going to look at this in totality, lets keep in mind the gravy schedule the Packers have this season.

I don't know where it ranks, but it has to be near, if not the easiest.

1 points
1
0
TKWorldWide's picture

November 15, 2023 at 03:15 pm

“Anger and alcohol are two truth serums.”
No wonder I’m so honest all the time.

5 points
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Tundraboy's picture

November 15, 2023 at 06:09 pm

That really needs to be on a sign somewhere!

1 points
1
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MainePackFan's picture

November 15, 2023 at 06:58 pm

Patent it and make a T-Shirt TK. I'd buy one : )

1 points
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Tundraboy's picture

November 16, 2023 at 10:25 pm

I'm in.

0 points
0
0
LeotisHarris's picture

November 15, 2023 at 08:44 pm

Great lyrics from James McMurtry's Too Long in the Wasteland:

Well, I hadn't intended
To bend the rules
But whiskey don't make liars
It just makes fools
So I didn't mean to say it
But I meant what I said

3 points
3
0
Coldworld's picture

November 15, 2023 at 06:03 pm

I don’t take it personally, I do see it as very revealing of what this man sees and is.

3 points
3
0
MainePackFan's picture

November 15, 2023 at 06:44 pm

Of course you don't take it personally. Why would you? I'm sure you disagree that Lafleur would be frustrated about what is happening with the team. I sure you also disagree that this team could easily be 6-3 instead of 3-6. I'm only guessing because you didn't address that part of the post.

0 points
0
0
Since'75's picture

November 15, 2023 at 07:15 pm

@Maine....

I'm impressed, especially if you downvoted me.
You gave me your point of view.
Respect for that 💯

I hear what you're saying and i agree to a degree, but.....

This was on Monday i believe, but i could be wrong, because i don't want to look it up because i'm tired. 🥱
So if true, emotion should have subsided.

As far as he was giving the reporter attitude and not Packer Nation as a whole.
1) I think he is smarter than that (i hope)
2) He should have known, everyone and their brother were wondering the same thing. It was out in social media like a hurricane, everyone was discussing and questioning it.

Yes they are 3-6 by some close games, now go look at the 2008 season and i think the Packers lost 7 close 1 score game.
They also would have lost the Saints game this season if not for a missed field goal, Just sayin.

MLF had three 13-3 seasons in a row, then a 8-9 season, he should be able to handle a valid question from a beat reporter imo.

I agree that MLF got a raw deal with the lack of offensive talent provided by Gute, i'm 100% on board with that.
I've said the same thing many many times, saying it wasn't doing Love any favors in his first year starting.

Appreciate the well thought out response Maine, it's rare around here.

GPG!!

2 points
2
0
MainePackFan's picture

November 16, 2023 at 07:44 am

I appreciate the response Since'75.

1 points
1
0
Tundraboy's picture

November 16, 2023 at 10:35 pm

After some more reflection on this, I'm thinking maybe the reporter should have asked him why the Steelers made the Packers D look like a High School team the way they let the Steelers waltz into the endzone without any resistance whatsoever.

0 points
0
0
Packerpasty's picture

November 15, 2023 at 12:00 pm

Oh, he's feeling a bit of pressure for sure...things arent all rosy like his first couple of years...not so cocky anymore...

4 points
5
1
Since'75's picture

November 15, 2023 at 07:23 pm

There ya go!!
A bit of adversity, how you handle speaks volumes.

0 points
0
0
mnbadger's picture

November 15, 2023 at 12:31 pm

What on earth is mlf thinking when he says opposing teams won't want to block our DE's with running backs?
They don't have to.
They use their C, G's and T's to blow up our ILB's and 1 or 2 interior lineman so RB's can prance 3.6 yards past the line of scrimmage BEFORE being touched.
What in God's green earth the F u _ _! is he thinking?
I apologize matt if I'm being condescending to you, but those of us that watch the game, that care about the outcome and desperately want improvement, see some obvious flaws.
Don't take it personally, just take it back to your small town and coach its small college team.
GPG!

7 points
8
1
Tundraboy's picture

November 15, 2023 at 06:11 pm

Could not have said it any better. We may not be experts but we know our football. We are Packer fans.

1 points
1
0
Guam's picture

November 15, 2023 at 01:22 pm

LaFleur's arrogance is bad, but his lack of football knowledge may be worse. He completely missed the point with the discussion of two D-linemen plus two OLB. When you play nickel, you pull one (large) defender out of the box. You no longer have seven guys in the box, you have six, regardless of size. It is much easier for an offense to block six defenders than seven at the line of scrimmage. The failure is not on the OLB's or DL's, it is having one fewer defender than necessary to control the gaps at the line.

And please don't tell me that a 200 pound DB playing five yards or more off the line of scrimmage is enough to adequately replace a seventh large defender at the line of scrimmage. And this is our "professional" Head Coach?????

7 points
7
0
Tundraboy's picture

November 16, 2023 at 10:54 pm

Thumbs up!

0 points
0
0
calabasa's picture

November 15, 2023 at 10:17 am

“Pressure from above”

I wonder how that affects an organization.

4 points
4
0
Savage57's picture

November 15, 2023 at 06:19 am

The boss in any organization is responsible for the performance of his staff.

When he fails to address shortfalls, he puts himself at risk.

That's the part of this which is most confusing because LaFleur seems smarter than that.

21 points
22
1
Razer's picture

November 15, 2023 at 08:48 am

You would think but he has put people in places that they are not qualified. We pick on Barry because he is easy to see but what about the O-line coach, WR coach or D-line coach. Poor technique, poor fundamentals and regression tell us that the coaching teaching is not effective.

10 points
10
0
Bitternotsour's picture

November 15, 2023 at 09:30 am

You're falling for the illusion of intelligence...

9 points
10
1
coolhand's picture

November 15, 2023 at 06:26 am

MLF just showed is ignorance when it comes to the defensive calls. He was up there defending barry and blaming the players for not stopping the run. This guy has no business being a HC.

24 points
29
5
NickPerry's picture

November 15, 2023 at 06:46 am

Boy if I could give you more than one thumbs up I certainly would. You're right on the money...NO business!

18 points
20
2
fireball's picture

November 15, 2023 at 07:10 am

I agree: Matt was ( at least in part ) defending his defensive coordinator. Two outside defensive ends ( 250 pounds each ) are not the same as two 300 pound plus linemen lined up on the scrimmage line to absolutely stop a running play through the middle. And, really, if he believed what he was arguing, the team is in more trouble than we imagine.

19 points
20
1
Bitternotsour's picture

November 15, 2023 at 09:33 am

How could he not believe it. He hired the coordinator to run the defense that he's running. I just don't understand how people have this disconnect. Barry is running the defense he proposed when Matt hired him. It's not like he's become something other than what he's always been.

THIS IS MATT LAFLEURS DEFENSE. This is Mark Murphy's team.

9 points
10
1
PeteK's picture

November 15, 2023 at 10:24 am

--He was correct in stating that our OLBs are comparatively bigger, Gary-277, Smith-265, Van Ness--272.
-- I believe what acerbates the run D even further than miss alignments are the poor/slow reactions by LBs/safeties and terrible tackling. JERSEYAL had Jones getting slammed by Pitt safeties on two plays in his article yesterday, while our DBs/S grab at shoulder pads and absorb blks.

10 points
10
0
Coldworld's picture

November 15, 2023 at 07:34 am

With that attitude, nothing will change. That’s really a big part of the problem. Time LaFleur does another one of his in season examinations of what the rest of the NFL does, because it does it differently.

I’ve never seen a HC who seems so devoid of understanding of the aspects of the team beyond his core area. This is 5 years in! This is a man not wired to lead actual performance. He’s a self-marketer not a HC.

We are on a hamster wheel with LaFleur, it just spins through the same ideas and errors season to season. It well past time to get off. This is a man so far out of his depth it’s painful. Defending the indefensible again is just not credible.

When leaders start telling the world that the sun rises in the west for them to justify developments then one knows the problems are pervasive. It’s time. Fire LaFleur. Nothing else will change anything.

22 points
25
3
jaxpackfan's picture

November 15, 2023 at 09:46 am

Can't disagree at all. The problem is, this is how things started to go downhill with McCarthy. The Packers seem in danger of starting the same trend as the Bears, Raiders and a number of other teams that continuously hire mediocre coaches and cycle them out after a few years of under performance.

7 points
7
0
Bitternotsour's picture

November 15, 2023 at 01:27 pm

Another thing regarding leadership, you don't make changes until you have a better alternative in place or at least a plan for improvement. Firing for the sake of firing is flat-out stupid. This is the horse we ride thru week 17.

Let's hope that a potential 4 game winning streak doesn't mask the rot at the core.

Does anyone remember the last time a college coach successfully moved into the pro ranks. Dan Lanning is a really impressive young head coach, but Oregon is not the NFL.

3 points
3
0
LeotisHarris's picture

November 15, 2023 at 08:55 pm

"Does anyone remember the last time a college coach successfully moved into the pro ranks."

Jimmy Johnson from U of Miami to the Cowboys. Man, that was a brutal start. I suppose we should include Pete Carroll, too, even though his work as HC in New England and with the Jets wasn't very good.

I'd like to see PJ Fleck and Lou Holtz team up and take over for KOC with the Vikings.

2 points
2
0
dobber's picture

November 15, 2023 at 10:03 pm

Jim Harbaugh? He flamed out quickly.

1 points
1
0
Bitternotsour's picture

November 15, 2023 at 10:23 pm

Pete Carroll is a hell of a football coach. I forgot the USC to Seattle ascent.

1 points
1
0
Cheezehead72's picture

November 15, 2023 at 07:41 am

All these comments are spot on and I enjoyed reading them. I will have to say that MLF makes it easy to see his shortcomings. He might be a good OC if that is all he had on his plate but as HC and Offensive play caller he is like putting a bunch of soft food on a plate with no compartments. All the food mixes together and you do not know what you will get.

Yes i had to use a food analogy being as Turkey Day is coming.

12 points
12
0
BAMABADGER's picture

November 15, 2023 at 08:16 am

Who are the 2 fools that gave you a thumbs down? MLF and Barry?

4 points
7
3
dobber's picture

November 15, 2023 at 08:26 am

They're coming here for game-planning advice, now.

2 points
3
1
jlc1's picture

November 15, 2023 at 09:31 am

Don't think so. Their game plans are far worse than anything suggested here.

4 points
4
0
Tundraboy's picture

November 15, 2023 at 06:18 pm

Superb. Saddest part is in this latest defensive debacle there is noone or nothing to defend. Accept the blame and responsibility,all of it. That's your job

1 points
1
0
NickPerry's picture

November 15, 2023 at 06:43 am

I look forward to this piece by Al every week. I was one of several people who followed Al over to CHTV when he merged with Cory and Nags (I think that's how it went) form his Packers site. But I have to say this is the not the cheery try to put a positive twist on the Packers article from Al. THIS is just depressing. But then again, SO are the Packers...Depressing!

Matt LaFleur... Sorry, I'm no longer on board with anything MLF says. He can call that garbage Barry lines up anything he wants. He can justify it anyway he wants. He can TRY and suggest, LaFleur and the other "Professionals" know what is REALLY going on. But to THIS armchair Coach and GM, THIS version of Defense isn't really Defense at all. It's like a spaghetti strainer, it ain't holding water and it leaks EVERYWHERE because of it's DESIGN! What a putz!

"He might be a little too in love with and anxious to use his speed to win. I would work with him on fundamentals, the first of which is completing each aspect of his routes correctly."

Well shit, maybe he's a little in love with his speed because that's ALL he has. He can't run routes well. Can't/doesn't fight for the ball. He couldn't find a hole in a zone if it was the size of half the field. AND, he can't catch the ball very well.

I think he could be coached up but here lies the problem, that word "Coached". Watson isn't going to get the coaching he really needs from this staff. My concerns now are not with what the Packers do for the rest of this season, but WHAT are the Packers going to do NEXT season. Bringing back MLF and this staff is just going to screw up MORE drafts picks with bad coaching.

25 points
28
3
Since'61's picture

November 15, 2023 at 07:25 am

Nick when we were with AL at Jersey AL's ALLGBP the Packers were moving in a very different direction. Specifically they were moving forward positively. They were better coached and they had better players. Back then we knew that the Packers had a good chance to win every week and that they were playoff bound at least.

Now we just don't see where this is going because the 2023 Packers have been bad with fundamentals. they repeatedly make the same mistakes and have poor technique. Yes, they are a young team and mistakes are to be expected but after 9 games we're not seeing the improvement that we expected.

Maybe we will over the 8 remaining games but with this coaching staff I din't have the confidence that they can pull it off. The next 3 games will provide a good measure of the Packers progress. We could be 3-9 when those games are over. We'll see but AL is just pointing out the frustration of watching this team and listening to the HC make the same comments week after week. Which basically that "we're not making any changes'. Hang in there. Thanks, Since '61

16 points
17
1
CheesedDeadHead's picture

November 15, 2023 at 07:54 am

Young players + record breaking bad coaching = 2023 Packers

4 points
4
0
dobber's picture

November 15, 2023 at 08:24 am

"The next 3 games will provide a good measure of the Packers progress. We could be 3-9 when those games are over. "

They're going to see what we thought was going to be the roughest 3-game stretch on the schedule. These are 3 teams that can score...that said, the Chargers are waffling and there's a lot of pressure on Staley right now. After last week's physical and demoralizing loss to Detroit at home, it's hard to say how that 4-5 team responds.

The Lions are exactly the kind of team the Packers have had no answer for in the last 10+ years. This will likely be a game that sours the stomach just before Thanksgiving dinner. But it will also be a measuring stick and a gut-check for a young team.

The Chiefs might be a better defensive team than offensive team right now. They're fast on both sides of the ball. They're experienced in key positions. We'll see how their season changes over the next couple weeks, but I'm guessing they'll be in December ramp-up for the playoffs.

The closing stretch isn't scary.

5 points
5
0
croatpackfan's picture

November 15, 2023 at 11:36 am

Since, true as bad taste reality.

I noticed that fear of change in MLF in his second season with Packers, when he did not mess with ST problems (and he should as HC), nor with DC (Pettine), whom he left to do things by his will. We thought that there were not more worse DCs than Pettine, but MLF found one.

I will point out once again. Amari Rodgers is not guilty for all his mistakes as PR. He just do not posses those skills. Still almost 2 and half seasons we were watching Amari Rodgers in that role. When HC made change - when BG released Amari Rodgers. Gutekunst have only that possibility to push MLF to made a change. Unfortunatelly only Mark WANI Murphy can do that with coaches, besides MLF.

I already stated a months ago, that this coaching team will ruin careers of many young players they are suppose to develop.

FOr me, all of those losses are on MLF and his coordinators (maybe less on Bisaccia) and supporting staf than on lack of talent at players. I can say there is some valid positional coaches (Montgomery, for example) who I believe can be much better DCs than Joe Barry. But what I know. I just believe that battle is won or lost on the line of schrimage, not in backfield or in secondary. And I trully believe that Montgomery would be the person who can establish that culture at Packers D.

Al is also right. And I put (also month ago) 4 or 5 phrases MLF is using at every post game press conference, while asked for more specific issue(s), he always reply
:"I/We have to watch the tape to see what went wrong!". Hmmmm, SO, you expect half time adjustments from MLF and his coaches? They can not do that, beause they have not enough time between halfs to watch the tape. So, consequently, they do not know what they need to change.

I agree with many that in season coaches changes are not something that should be done easily, but when you have the product that looks like Packers looks it does not matters. Change can produce some improvements.

I'll suggest to hire some college OC and DC. Team is young and used to play little different schemes. So, it will be refreshing moments for those young players to have some "familiar" play calls, consequently they will run more routes as it is meant to be run. On D, it will be similar, as more and more teams starts to implement college ideas at offense and defense.

And those coordinator might be less expensive. Fire Joe Barry, leave Stenavich with title, but give him the responsibility for his previous positional job and gave the title Assistant OC to true, new OC.

Ah, man can dream.....

3 points
3
0
Tundraboy's picture

November 16, 2023 at 11:10 pm

For the first time in a long time I can not possibly envision them winning any of the next 3 games but I'll take any signs of progress. I accept that it will be the players overcoming the coaching and who knows someone may emerge. But this staff is a lost cause, and only Murphy can change it so patience is the order of the day. In the meantime here comes another week of let's see what the starting OL will be this week!

0 points
0
0
Guam's picture

November 15, 2023 at 07:42 am

NP: I wonder when the player revolt will start? LaFleur clearly was blaming the players for their failure to stop the run (execute the scheme) when it is highly likely they see the same thing the fans do - it is a flawed scheme. I suspect Jerry Gray is no longer a coach with the Packers for the same reason - he knew this scheme doesn't work versus the run. It is hard to replace a 300 pound D-lineman with a 200 pound DB (playing off the line) and expect the same run stopping capability.

LaFleur may well lose this locker room pretty soon.......

11 points
13
2
Racingdad's picture

November 15, 2023 at 09:39 pm

I’m hoping mlf loses his job soon

1 points
1
0
Cheezehead72's picture

November 15, 2023 at 07:49 am

I agree I look forward to Al's column as he does not sugar coat and he writes the truth whether good or bad. For those that want the feel good stories and want to read stuff from overly optimistic fans I can tell you where to go.

12 points
12
0
jlc1's picture

November 15, 2023 at 09:35 am

Next season? Barry will be gone. Everyone else stays for one year until Murphy goes. After that it is up to the Board to hire a GM with more say so than Gute has. That means MLF will be gone. Or the Board screws up again and puts someone in the Murphy job with the same responsibilities and we get a GM who wants a mini-GM job. It's up to the Board.

3 points
3
0
Spock's picture

November 15, 2023 at 09:53 am

Nick, I also was a follower of Al's previous site (I didn't comment at all back then) and always went to CHTV next. To be honest I still much prefer Al's previous site to the merged CHTV (as Nags would say, "Your mileage may vary.", lol) but now CHTV is the only Packer site I go to and certainly the only one I comment on. Al's "Confessions" is still my favorite piece here. I don't watch any of the post-game stuff and rely on this site to point out the "interesting" stuff. Yikes, this commentary from MLF is, well, disturbing. Since nothing is likely to change until Murphy retires it's going to be a long couple of years.

8 points
8
0
NickPerry's picture

November 15, 2023 at 07:38 pm

Spock, I'm thinking the same. There may be a new DC but I'm afraid they'll run tis back. What choice do they have? I don't think they can hire a quality HC knowing a new GM and President will be coming in the following year. They'd be a lame suck.

Yup, really long!

0 points
0
0
Since'61's picture

November 15, 2023 at 07:14 am

I don't really care how MLF defines his defense or what he calls his pass rushers when they are in nickel. The bottom line is that whatever he calls it, it's not working. The Packers are giving up first downs and TDs and are terrible against the run and it's not working. Why are we in nickel in this short yardage situations?

As for Watson where is the receivers coach? Shouldn't he be helping Watson with his route running and with tracking the ball? What are the coaches doing on this team? Where are the fundamentals? Thanks, Since '61

20 points
21
1
HawkPacker's picture

November 15, 2023 at 07:19 am

I agree Since'61. Just wondering why it seems so easy for us armchair quartebacks (coaches?) to see that the two down lineman is not working but the coaches do not see it that way.

9 points
9
0
Coldworld's picture

November 15, 2023 at 07:43 am

Organizations, like people, when faced with failure often go into their shells and double down for a lack of either fortitude or imagination to tackle the challenges. That leads to massive self reinforcement and refusing to see the otherwise obvious (to anyone outside the mindset).

That is where the Packers have gone under LaFleur and it’s a disconnect that only gets broader as it struggles to hold the line against outside reality.

9 points
10
1
dobber's picture

November 15, 2023 at 08:27 am

Some--like Ryan Pace--were masters of deflection.

2 points
2
0
CheesedDeadHead's picture

November 15, 2023 at 01:45 pm

So defecation is spelled d-e-f-l-e-c-t-i-o-n?

3 points
3
0
jannes bjornson's picture

November 15, 2023 at 08:55 am

Regardless of their psychological profile, these frauds are wheeling a barrel of cash to the piggy-bank every week, with zero pressure to change the paradigm.

4 points
5
1
dobber's picture

November 15, 2023 at 07:28 am

"The bottom line is that whatever he calls it, it's not working. "

The proof is in the pudding, and this pudding has a big ol' garlic clove in it.

8 points
8
0
croatpackfan's picture

November 15, 2023 at 11:46 am

I would like to have opportunity to ask MLF on press conference one question while showing him and auditorium one short clip from Rams at Packers game.

It was, I believe, 1st and goal from 5 to 7 yards. Packers "populated" line of the scrimmage with 4 "down lineman". It looks like this. on the left side from center of opposing OL was Slaton, Clark and Preston, who was on the position of outside shoulder of LT (so, he was actually OLB). To the right of the center was 1 player, Rashan Garry, opposed to the RT and his position was also on the out shoulder of RT (actually he was positioned as OLB). Rams scored rushing TD with easy. But what I know? I'm "young" fan by time I invested in football compare to many on this site and surely knows much, much less that MLF and Joe Barry about football. I surely missing something...

5 points
5
0
Packerpasty's picture

November 15, 2023 at 12:09 pm

Good question...what are the coaches doing during spring training and pre season?? What have they taught the QB with his accuracy and footwork problems? Watson should be much better this season instead he has regressed...is he afraid of more injuries? Isn't in synch with the new QB?? I thought they worked out together last off season...too much regression in various areas on this team...

-1 points
1
2
MainePackFan's picture

November 15, 2023 at 01:43 pm

"Where are the fundamentals?"

Since'61. They only teach those on weeks we win ; )

1 points
2
1
HawkPacker's picture

November 15, 2023 at 07:16 am

Great points Al and good conversations as well with the posters.

I am glad the 2 lineman issue was discussed and we can now see that part of Barry's issue is with LaFleur as well even though we knew that since he was HC, he was part of the defensive issues.

RE: Watson, he still needs time to grow, or at least I hope so, along with better coaching? I know we need to draft OL in the next draft and rather high I might add. I also believe a stud DL is important as well. However, even though we seem to have some very good WR's, we might want to add that superstar stud receiver if available.

Some advocate a redo on the FO. I am not at that point yet but do believe we are in need of major changes to the coaching staff.

10 points
10
0
dobber's picture

November 15, 2023 at 08:05 am

"even though we seem to have some very good WR's, we might want to add that superstar stud receiver if available."

If there's anything that we're learning this season, it's that the passing game has plenty of issues. Whether that's drops, bad routes, underthrown balls, poor timing on throws, there's a lot that needs work. I'm optimistic that some of these guys will outgrow the dropsies--we've seen a couple good WR in GB (James Jones, Davante Adams) get over the drops enough to be very good pros.

If a super-duper blue-chip WR (channeling my inner LH) falls into your lap and is clearly the best player on your board, you take him (or try to deal down). It's one thing to be rounding out a playoff-caliber roster that needs a couple targeted pieces to flesh things out--this is pretty different. Plenty of draft capital in this case. Here's hoping the Jets continue to fall.

"Some advocate a redo on the FO. I am not at that point yet but do believe we are in need of major changes to the coaching staff."

I'm in agreement with you. If everyone thinks the team is poorly coached, it's hard to say just how well the talent has been assembled...you can't conclude B if you don't know A. That said, with bad teams, the coaches usually bear the brunt of the first wave of changes. If we see some churn in the coaching staff leading up to 2024, that usually means the seat is getting hot for whomever is in charge of hiring/firing coaches. Now, that's also in a sane structure where the GM is the architect and bears the accountability for most on-field stuff...not this bizarro-world structure we see.

3 points
4
1
ricky's picture

November 15, 2023 at 07:19 am

We can discuss semantics, terminology and professional football knowledge. Or we can discuss whether the team is effective at stopping the run. It isn't. Now, how do the coaches fix the problem? That is what is important. As the old saying goes, "Fix the problem, not the blame."

10 points
10
0
Coldworld's picture

November 15, 2023 at 07:50 am

If one doesn’t accept the problem there’s nothing to fix and no blame. It’s outsiders being ignorant or players not holding their end up, so just keep at it. The death throes of a failed regime, if only we had someone outside of it in a position to put it out of its misery.

10 points
11
1
TKWorldWide's picture

November 15, 2023 at 07:50 am

Well put. Hard to fix something that isn’t seen as broken.

6 points
6
0
Razer's picture

November 15, 2023 at 08:42 am

So true Ricky. I am curious what the "people who know" such as our front office, Mark Murphy or alum are thinking/saying about this failed defensive strategy. At some point, knowledgeable people are going to tell the boss - "your coaching staff has it's collective head up it's ass"

3 points
3
0
Tundraboy's picture

November 15, 2023 at 06:38 pm

" At some point, knowledgeable people are going to tell the boss - "your coaching staff has it's collective head up it's ass"."

That's what I've been hoping. Isn't someone with some connections to the board, saying that. Not that they're the boss, but it's all we have.

They have to be thinking it.

0 points
0
0
CheesedDeadHead's picture

November 15, 2023 at 07:24 am

Matt LaFleur is making me miss Dan Devine.

16 points
16
0
dobber's picture

November 15, 2023 at 07:29 am

Dan Devine has been dead for 20 years...which means he's probably available.

9 points
9
0
CheesedDeadHead's picture

November 15, 2023 at 07:38 am

I believe by the MLF “professional” designation that being dead or brain dead isn’t a disqualifying criteria.

5 points
5
0
ricky's picture

November 15, 2023 at 05:37 pm

When he makes you miss Forrest Gregg, you'll know things are really bad.

2 points
2
0
T7Steve's picture

November 15, 2023 at 07:29 am

"Would you want a back blocking him, you idiot?"

Of course not, the back's busy with the ball and running between the real tackles spread 3 yards apart, outside of the guards.

I think Watson will come along eventually. It's taking longer than it should because he doesn't seem to have anyone helping him or making him want to. They're supposed to acquire and pay a veteran FA WR to mentor him instead of having the coaches do it??? Remember last season too, he didn't really get started till the Dallas game.

The problem's not Murphy or Gute. We've been off the mark. Berry and Lafleur have to be next door neighbors. Their WIVES are best friends together in the Womens Church Social. Who else do you think could really be calling the shots?

-1 points
2
3
TKWorldWide's picture

November 15, 2023 at 07:56 am

Re: Watson: once he “got going” last season, he was really dangerous. This season I think we all expected him to pick up where he left off last year. Why hasn’t he? What happened? The change at QB?

3 points
3
0
PeteK's picture

November 15, 2023 at 11:00 am

Injuries have slowed him down, different QB, teams are aware of him now??? I took a look at his stats from last season and he had 3/4 very productive games, but the rest were similar to this season. What other choice do we have, but to stick with him this season.

2 points
2
0
Coldworld's picture

November 15, 2023 at 06:20 pm

He was very raw coming in. I had hoped to see signs that he’d been working on technique and not just relying on his physical gifts. Sadly I do not see a noticeable improvement in his technique catching or running routes. I say that feeling we are again using him to his weaknesses (go routes) and not his strength, crossing ones. Why I’ve no idea.

3 points
3
0
MooPack's picture

November 15, 2023 at 07:31 am

LeFleur was a bit quick to jump on that question like he knew it was coming and had to have an explanation. Hey Matt - Buuuuuullllllshhhhiiittt. But you keep going with what works for you.

5 points
7
2
Cheezehead72's picture

November 15, 2023 at 07:47 am

Al once again a good honest assessment of this team. As for D as stated many times above Berry needs to go period. Let's see what this D can do without their hands tied behind their backs. On offense Watson needs to be dropped to 4th or 5th WR. Doubs, Reed, and Wicks have shown they play better in all aspects.

1 points
2
1
CheesedDeadHead's picture

November 15, 2023 at 07:47 am

“ I say "defensive linemen" to distinguish between the 300 lb run stuffers and 250 lb pass rushers.”

Al, Al, Al, if you were a “professional”, you would know that any DB that lines up at the line of scrimmage is by definition a “defensive lineman”. Duh. And they have about the same chance of stopping a run up the middle as the OLBs.

7 points
7
0
TKWorldWide's picture

November 15, 2023 at 07:53 am

At least we know they won’t give up a 50 yard TD pass when they’re on the goal line.

10 points
10
0
JerseyAl's picture

November 15, 2023 at 11:43 am

ha!

3 points
3
0
dobber's picture

November 15, 2023 at 07:54 am

LaFleur--

The "us in this profession" comment means we're moving toward the defensive position we saw with "I'm a successful football coach." It's good to see some angst and some bite-back in him like we've seen recently. It means people are putting some pressure on him, and pressure leads to change. If it doesn't, then change will be imposed on the situation.

There were some good things to take from Sunday's game, and it's clear that the coaching staff hasn't lost the team. That's a vital piece and that's what's going to keep things moving forward. At this stage, I don't want a lost season, and a checked out locker room will lead to that. Losing and tanking basically makes this a lost season and sets the clock back by at least a year on a rebuild.

"Watson....Musgrave"

We've been saying around here for awhile that the 2023 Watson isn't being used well based on what the 2022 Watson really excelled at. Some are saying Watson needs an ARod--based on the catch-and-go kind of stuff Watson ran a year ago, that shouldn't be true. It might also be that the umbrella/shell defenses the Packers are seeing are limiting Watson's use in that way. Whatever the case, the game plan has to be about the same for this younger developing WR as it is for a younger developing QB: get him some gimmes and put him in a position to produce and build confidence. It's still on-the-job training at this point which is frustrating given that people expected more.

Encouraged to see Musgrave getting more attempts downfield. This Packers offense needs that, and it helps to move LBs and Ss, and to clear the underneath stuff for Watson and others. I wish that someone who is supposed to be so athletically gifted (for a TE) actually looked like he can run without tripping over his own feet. Happy to see Kraft on the field more, but it feels like that's responding to an inconsistent OL that needs help than it is about being creative with 2-TE sets.

All of that said, this youth movement is all about assessment. It's all about finding out who can play, who they can build on, and then churning the rest. It might be that Watson is a big ol' miss, but they've seen enough of him to know he can impact games in several ways. They've also got other guys they need to assess and grow and they're showing signs that they're doing that (Wicks, Reed)....it seems foolish to go away from them.

"we have the referees and the video review team, who are evidently not able to draw a straight line between two points."

They drew a straight line...it just wasn't parallel to the LOS.

4 points
4
0
RCPackerFan's picture

November 15, 2023 at 09:04 am

"There were some good things to take from Sunday's game, and it's clear that the coaching staff hasn't lost the team."
Until its clear the staff has lost the players, no point in keep calling for their heads on a daily basis. Although I really hope we are done with Barry at the end of the year.

"Whatever the case, the game plan has to be about the same for this younger developing WR as it is for a younger developing QB: get him some gimmes and put him in a position to produce and build confidence."
This is a very true thing. So many want to bash Watson. But it takes time. Remember Adams his first few years? Yeah i know they are different players. But they both flashed as rookies and have had down 2nd years. We need to have patience with young players. Its a draft and develop. Not draft and Hall of Fame.

3 points
3
0
croatpackfan's picture

November 15, 2023 at 11:56 am

I have problem with Musgrave. He always turning his front before he catches the ball and that makes him stumble when he is truning towards goal line, or he is falling on his back. Few passes that "lead him to catch the ball over the shoulder was considered overthrown. He should work on his ball tracking and style of catching the ball.

And for you, who was complaining on referees for that bad call not to allows Rashan TD vs Steelers, they also mistake when Musgrave was tackled on in contact with the ground lost the control of the ball (he did not survived contact with the ground!). I can say there was so many referrees mistakes against the the both sides, that I will not use that as excuse...

1 points
1
0
Coldworld's picture

November 15, 2023 at 12:13 pm

“The "us in this profession" comment means we're moving toward the defensive position we saw with "I'm a successful football coach."”

Yes, that struck me immediately I saw what he said and then more so how he voiced it. It’s a man who knows he’s got no solution and a wall pressing ever harder behind him. It’s the last desperate recourse of man toppling from his perch.

5 points
6
1
PackEyedOptimist's picture

November 15, 2023 at 07:56 am

The egregious gaps in short yardage situations are making all of us crazy. Can we PLEASE add another run-stuffing DL to this roster? Clark and Slaton are all we have. (And please don’t bring up Jonathan Ford, he’s huge and HORRIBLE against the run).
It’s not just Watson. Both he and Musgrave have either been poorly coached, or are terrified of dropping a pass, because both of them turn to face the pass instead of catching over their shoulders and keeping their momentum. Thankfully, Reed isn’t afraid to keep running.

4 points
4
0
RCPackerFan's picture

November 15, 2023 at 09:06 am

"turn to face the pass instead of catching over their shoulders and keeping their momentum."

I don't think Watson has had a chance to catch a pass like that as almost everyone to him have been underthrown.

1 points
2
1
LeotisHarris's picture

November 15, 2023 at 09:29 am

The Egregious Gaps could work as a nickname for Joe Barry's D. I know it's not The Steel Curtain, Doomsday Defense, or even Gang Green, but it's honest. Folks in Marketing at 1265, if you're reading, this one's on me. No charge!

7 points
7
0
Tundraboy's picture

November 15, 2023 at 06:46 pm

I'm thinking something along the lines of strainer, sieve, like NP mentioned, or Turnstyle, EzPass. So many possibilities. I'll have to give it some more thought.

0 points
0
0
stockholder's picture

November 15, 2023 at 07:59 am

Interesting numbers from 3-4-4 base to the nickel.
Especially the numbers with 1 yard to go.
In 2010
Raji weighed 337. Pickett weighed 340. Jenkins 305 / Sub-Green 340.
What was wrong with CM3, Hawk, Bishop, Zombo ?
The GM changed that. Even Reggie White weighed 300.(4-3-4)
This team doesn’t look anything like that. And never will.
It’s too light. Period. The OL there facing are 310 up.
And with Rookies on the line, change the base. Per that 1 yard!!
Walker was drafted for a reason. That also showed up.

Watson -
Most here knew I loved Watson, and I knew he needed a Vet QB.
You suggest Wr Coach . I suggest he doesn’t come back for the ball.
Something Rodgers complained about constantly.
You're not wrong per coaching. But give me Wicks over Dobbs.
As long as Watson gets double teamed. Someone is open.

-1 points
5
6
jannes bjornson's picture

November 15, 2023 at 09:13 am

Yes, Wicks is the real deal with smooth routes, but he has to secure the ball better. I would go with him and Reed to make the plays and let Watson and Doubs fight for the #3 guy. Watson has to be hit in stride. He's not a stop and go WR. The out and up was sloppy and telegraphed the play on the INT. Ball needed to go to someone else. Love has to read DBL team and look to the other guy. Processing the Game. Get it to the rear pylon for the WR, or out of bounds. Live for the next play.

4 points
4
0
13TimeChamps's picture

November 15, 2023 at 09:59 am

"Watson has to be hit in stride."

Therein lies the problem. When you have a speed receiver who has to be "hit in stride" you need an accurate QB throwing him the ball. Unfortunately, we don't have that right now. That's not to bash Love. It's just stating the obvious.

3 points
4
1
jannes bjornson's picture

November 15, 2023 at 11:31 am

He hit him on the cross in the Philly game last season. Just a basic WCO design. Emanuel Wilson needs to have the ball in his hands. Jones is not helping the cause dropping passes, or fumbling away momentum.

3 points
3
0
Razer's picture

November 15, 2023 at 08:34 am

When I watched Matt LaFleur "school" the press on OLBers standing outside the tackles constituting 4 down linemen it thought back Mike McCarthy prefacing one of his answers with the "polluted mindset" phrase. Matt would be a better coach in this league if he stayed an OC and drew up fancy plays for a living. He is in over his head and he has surrounded himself with the only coaches who needed the job bad enough to stick around. Our big mistake is still to come when LaFleur is given next year to continue moulding this "young" team.

8 points
8
0
Bitternotsour's picture

November 15, 2023 at 09:45 am

The difference being Mike McCarthy was correct, and Matt LaFleur is just a dick.

4 points
5
1
SinceLombardi's picture

November 15, 2023 at 07:18 pm

If they keep losing I suppose he could lose the team.. putting doubt on his return in 24.
Young or veteran teams, good or bad he’s had both. Now in his fifth year I think it’s safe to say there are much better options out there. It’s just up to the organization to find them.

0 points
0
0
Lphill's picture

November 15, 2023 at 08:52 am

Lefluer was being a total dick when asked about 2 down lineman, he’s lost and he’s lost this team .

11 points
12
1
fireball's picture

November 15, 2023 at 02:02 pm

Agree, a total dick because he didn't like being questioned by a reporter. . . So he resorts to sarcasm and trying to make out like the reporter doesn't know shit. Man, if you don't like your football knowledge being questioned, then don't get up in front of reporters to be questioned!

2 points
2
0
Tundraboy's picture

November 15, 2023 at 06:48 pm

Don't expect to last long in professional sports either.

0 points
0
0
RCPackerFan's picture

November 15, 2023 at 08:53 am

What to do about Watson -
I agree about having Wicks go for jump balls. He can get up for the ball.
One of the biggest problems with Watson has a number of the deep balls to him have been short. including the one that got tipped and intercepted. The ball needed to be placed farther back in the endzone. It wasn't a horrible throw and the CB made a tremendous play. But if he has it 1 more yard its in a spot that only Watson can get to it.
I just saw something that showed that Watson draws a ton of attention downfield. When he runs deep he is really opening up things for people underneath.
One thing that Watson has been great with is his blocking.

Musgrave - The budding :Love -
It is great to see Musgrave starting to get the downfield looks. He is really starting to make an impact. I want to see him continue to get the ball in stride. Most throws to him seem to be where he has to adjust and then he ends up stumbling and can't get any yac.

Blunders -
Deguara, i have no clue what he was doing on that extra point.
Jones - He had 2 huge blunders in this game. The dropped pass from Wicks that hit him in the chest, and not getting out of bounds.
Refs - don't need to draw a straight line with the one angle I saw. it perfectly showed that the ball went backwards. So I have no clue what the refs were looking at. That cost the Packers 7 points, and at the very least cost them a 1st and goal inside the 10.

"In the end, while we have plenty to complain about, we are seeing some signs of a light at the end of the tunnel. And that's about all we can expect from the 2023 Packers. Just keep moving closer to that light."

Trust me, there is plenty of complaining going on. The funny thing is most people expected a down year, a learning year, and yet are still complaining.
There is light at the end of the tunnel. Look while we have a very young offense, we have had 3 4th quarter leads. Outside of the Lions game (which we got within 10 with a full quarter left to play), we have been in every game. our offense is starting to find its way downfield more. The young WR's are starting to really turn it on. Love has looked good these last couple of games. I'm excited to see how we finish out the year.

8 points
8
0
T7Steve's picture

November 15, 2023 at 09:06 am

RCP, "there is plenty of complaining going on. The funny thing is most people expected a down year, a learning year, and yet are still complaining."

I don't see anyone complaining about the youngsters. They're complaining about the vet and coaching mistakes and or oversites, especially on the line of scrimmage.

Remember that in the previous game we had almost exactly the same lateral pass angle dropped and called a fumble on review that went out of bounds and cost us yards?

3 points
4
1
RCPackerFan's picture

November 15, 2023 at 09:13 am

You must not be looking at the same places I do. I see complaints about everything. GM to coaches to players.

2 points
4
2
Razer's picture

November 15, 2023 at 09:51 am

...What to do about Watson?...

The only thing to do about Watson is teach him how to be a real WR that plays against NFL caliber players. Like numerous Gutekunst's draft crushes, he was over drafted. He needs a savvy WR coach who can teach him about route running, selling a play and using his speed and body more effectively.

We have put the WR#1 tag on a guy who is basically a raw MVS at this point. I hope that they can develop him further than a long striding, deep threat otherwise he will be reduced to a draft 'reach'.

3 points
3
0
RCPackerFan's picture

November 15, 2023 at 09:59 am

Fun fact I just learned on twitter. Watson is the most double teamed WR in the league.

Maybe the problem is we are trying to put labels on everything. Why do we have to have a WR 1 label right now? We have 6 WR's on the roster. We have 3 2nd year and 3 rookies. We need to worry more about these guys developing and improving vs saying who is WR1, 2, 3, 4 etc.

5 points
5
0
NFLfan's picture

November 15, 2023 at 10:16 am

@Razer-

"Draft-crushes'-lol.
'Intense infatuation, not grounded in reality'

3 points
3
0
dobber's picture

November 15, 2023 at 11:14 am

"Like numerous Gutekunst's draft crushes, he was over drafted. "

Watson has elite measurables, but his evaluation was all over the place and I think where he landed represented a median view of the evals. He is a risk/reward kind of prospect. There's some future here, yet, but it feels like they aren't teaching him anything or even really watching his film.

"We have put the WR#1 tag on a guy who is basically a raw MVS at this point."

I think his toolkit is more diverse than MVS and his usage in 2022 teased us in a way that MVS never really did. I agree on the raw part.

2 points
2
0
RCPackerFan's picture

November 15, 2023 at 10:16 am

Another interesting thing I just read from Bill Hubber.

Watson has played in 6 games. He has caught 14 of 33 passes (42% catch rate) for 236 yards and one TD.
Of the 33 passes thrown at Watson only 22 of them were deemed catchable according to Sports Info Solutions. That is the lowest rate in the NFL. So if Watson is 14 of 22 instead of 33 his catch rate improves significantly to 64%.

1 points
3
2
Rebecca's picture

November 15, 2023 at 01:17 pm

So then those uncatchable balls shouldn’t count in Love’s passing completion %. Bad passes shouldn’t count because some guy somewhere says so. Look at Matt LaFleur’s first 4 seasons win loss stats. His won loss record looked genius his first 3 years. Not so much since then.

3 points
3
0
RCPackerFan's picture

November 15, 2023 at 01:29 pm

no clue what you are talking about.

Simply relating what I saw in Bill Huber's article.

0 points
1
1
BAMABADGER's picture

November 15, 2023 at 08:57 am

Once AR was traded, many on this blog said we will now see what kind of HC we have. It took 10 weeks, MLF's answer to that question just might confirm it.

12 points
12
0
MemphoMike's picture

November 15, 2023 at 09:05 am

Always an accurate and insightful, JA! A few weeks ago, I believe it was you that said, in reference to MLF, that the bloom had fallen off the rose......again, accurate and insightful. I agreed with you then and his acerbic responses in recent press conferences seem to support that he's aware of this as well.

MLF planting his flag in the Joe Barry camp is confounding considering what everyone has seen from JB. The baffling alignments and schemes in down and distance situations have failed every time and now even the football "novice" community can reasonably question this. To dismiss these questions bc those asking are not "professional" evaluators is hubris..... at it's worst.

MLF's steadfast support of his failed coordinator has been questioned since he hired JB and then became more heightened when MLF chose to keep him on staff after seeing zero growth. It appears that JB is MLF's ride or die guy. These winding roads were ultimately going to converge and now it appears that rather than preserving his own position, he prefers to risk everything by deflecting responsibility and acknowledging the issues that others now question.

It should be an interesting next few weeks with SD, KC and DET games looming. There will be no hiding JB against these prolific offenses and could dictate if he sticks around thru the end of the year. If JB stays, MLF should expect to have even more questions from the "novice" community. How he answers/handles these questions may determine what his own future looks like with this team.

8 points
8
0
T7Steve's picture

November 15, 2023 at 09:12 am

"How he answers/handles these questions may determine what his own future looks like with this team."

He's never changed the way he answers questions. Same pat answers. It proves that he doesn't know the answers.

1 points
1
0
MemphoMike's picture

November 15, 2023 at 04:44 pm

Fair observation. I'm focused on how his demeanor and tone have changed since his early days......you are correct, his answers have mostly remained unchanged.....

0 points
0
0
Dragon5's picture

November 15, 2023 at 09:10 am

Hull is breached and taking on water!

Yes Matt, and perhaps if we named the remains of Nitschke our new DC, the players will autonomously figure it out. Honestly, I bet all of us would prefer that option at this point over Barry's scheming.

NFL players train together in the offseason...no reason why Watson couldn't seek out Davante. Seeing the Houston highlights, the camera angle didn't pan out much, but based on the numerous protection breakdowns, you could tell Houston WRs were doing a lot of comeback routes to rescue Stroud...our receivers too often operate in linear fashion and improvise poorly--lone exception might be Wicks--he seems to be in the right spot often, whether by design or improvisation.

When it's all said and done, Murph will be tagged with "we're not idiots" and now MLF has "just so you know how us professionals...." Gute better bite his tongue.

6 points
7
1
Razer's picture

November 15, 2023 at 10:04 am

...When it's all said and done, Murph will be tagged with "we're not idiots" and now MLF has "just so you know how us professionals...." Gute better bite his tongue...

Well said. Gutekunst is as slick as a surplus asphalt salesman. If he doesn't like the question or doesn't want to answer a question he just takes you down a distraction path. LaFleur, Murphy and Gutekunst all have big egos, the difference is that Gutekunst hides his better.

1 points
2
1
Bitternotsour's picture

November 15, 2023 at 12:23 pm

So, you're suggesting that Gutekunst should be ego-free? A zen-like presence, more David Carradine in Kung Fu, than say, the blowhard and egocentric Ron Wolf?

A case can be made that Ted Thompson was remarkably ego free I suppose. I do have great respect for Ted.

I do think that Gutekunst shares a lot of characteristics with Ted, a reliance on tape and games rather than combines and external noise. His seemingly sticking to a plan (until Mark "we're not idiots" Murphy interjects). Brian has one characteristic that is superior to Ted, he actually engages with the press.

0 points
1
1
barutanseijin's picture

November 15, 2023 at 05:41 pm

TT definitely had an ego. He didn’t talk much, that’s all.

0 points
0
0
LeotisHarris's picture

November 15, 2023 at 09:22 am

Kudos to Wilde for asking the question.

"He says people are exposing themselves when they complain about two down linemen." Projection is a very real thing, and when Matt talks long enough in unscripted language, he tells us who he is. "People expose themselves."

My hat's off to all of you who pointed out the emperor had no clothes during those 13-3 seasons; CW, Taryn, and others. Yes, I enjoyed the ride and the moments, but it is very clear that Coach LaFleur is ill-equipped to be a successful HC in the NFL.

These players deserve better than Joe Barry and Matt LaFleur.

11 points
12
1
Razer's picture

November 15, 2023 at 10:10 am

...Kudos to Wilde for asking the question...

Yes indeed. Most of the beat writers temper their questions and keep away from challenging authority. Too bad the writers aren't afforded the opportunity to ask an immediate followup question. It would have been nice to hear the answer to "so how's that pseudo 4-3 working for you?"

7 points
7
0
pantz_bURp's picture

November 15, 2023 at 10:06 am

"we are seeing some signs of a light at the end of the tunnel."...it ain't a train a coming is it? 😀

All guess, no breaks...

*Seriously, I don't expect anyone on this forum to have the answers or insight into the Packers and the happenings at 1265 Lombardi Ave. What I can tell you, is with this mixed bag of opinions and insight/observations you all share. I am a more knowledgeable fan (at least in my opinion)

Thank you all for that!

GPG

*I may be wrong but I thought Wilde, or someone else followed up Coach LaF's response with (paraphrasing), "Taush will have a field day with that response". I know Taush was an OL, but with his experience in the NFL, he may have valid insight. That, or I could be simply wrong in what I thought I heard?

3 points
3
0
RCPackerFan's picture

November 15, 2023 at 10:23 am

"*I may be wrong but I thought Wilde, or someone else followed up Coach LaF's response with (paraphrasing), "Taush will have a field day with that response". I know Taush was an OL, but with his experience in the NFL, he may have valid insight. That, or I could be simply wrong in what I thought I heard?"

You heard it correctly. If you listened to Wilde this week you would have heard him say that LaFluer called him to apologize about jumping him in the press conference.

Also if you listened to Wilde and Tausch this week you would have heard that what LaFluer said was correct. That offenses treat those OLB's as DE's or as Defensive Linemen. This is from Tauscher, Bulaga, and many other NFL players that have come out and talked about it.

5 points
6
1
pantz_bURp's picture

November 15, 2023 at 10:37 am

Got it, thanks RC! 👍

2 points
2
0
Jako62's picture

November 15, 2023 at 10:33 am

Not sure the difference between OLB Smith/Gary/Van Ness who are all around 6-5 275lbs plus compared and DL Wooden 6-4 270, Brooks 6-3 290lbs. Even Wyatt is is on the lighter side being just over 300lbs. When you look at raw strength numbers there is even less differentiation between all the “down lineman”

5 points
5
0
NFLfan's picture

November 15, 2023 at 10:40 am

LaFleur and Gutekunst allegedly have college degrees-'Us professionals' is painful to listen to. Both of them stumble through their native language and job assignments.

5 points
6
1
NP's picture

November 15, 2023 at 10:50 am

OLB = Defensive End. Full Stop. End of story. They can, and do, line up in gaps 5i to 9.

If you want to run a base 3-4 you DO NOT get to whine about an OLB dropping into coverage at times. And yes teams will scheme to try and exploit this. Put on your big boy pants and deal. And if it was a base 4-3 the same thing can happen.

Oh and if you didn't know this: ALL teams run more nickel than anything else these days. See above.

If you want to complain about the Packers lining up in Nickel in short yardage, by all means do so. But the way the question is being phrased is not accurate. Personally I believe the inaccuracy is purposeful and intended.

In the goal-to-go example the ROLB shifted to line up on the GUARD. With 25 jamming into the 5 spot. I notice the article implies that this did not happen.

0 points
4
4
Rebelgb's picture

November 15, 2023 at 01:25 pm

MLF is that you?

Seriously your pretending to be naive of the real question being asked, and I dont think its purposeful or intended to be obtuse so as to illicit a reaction from the coach.

The question is fair, you can call OLB= DE's all you want, that does NOT change the fact that only 2 linemen are getting into a 3 point stance at the line of scrimmage. That is what is so baffling to people on short yardage. YES most teams play primarily nickel, but either you dont watch a lot of football or your intentionally being shady because I watch a lot of football and i can tell you i have very rarely if ever seen other team line up with only 2 men in a 3 point stance on short yardage plays, especially at the line of scrimmage when you may actually see one or more of those OLB actually line up in 3 point to join the other 3 or 4 "linemen".

Of course MLF knew this and he became defensive about it for no reason.

6 points
6
0
RCPackerFan's picture

November 15, 2023 at 01:36 pm

LaFluer diverted the question to take heat off of Barry. As he usually does he tries to take heat off of players and coaches. He likes to take all the blame.

Listen to the Mark Tauscher, Bulaga (Iowa), Andrew Whittworth, who all have chimed in on this. They all have said Matt was correct. Wilde also knew this, but it was Matt's way to divert the question.

2 points
2
0
Rebelgb's picture

November 15, 2023 at 02:37 pm

Noone said Matt wasnt correct. What im saying is Matt knew damn well the question isnt about how many "defensive lineman" are on the field, the question is why there is only 2 of them in a 3 point stance between the tackles..........

3 points
3
0
GLM's picture

November 15, 2023 at 11:11 am

We aren't who we thought we were! We let ourselves off the hook!

4 points
4
0
HarryHodag's picture

November 15, 2023 at 11:18 am

",,,we are seeing some signs of a light at the end of the tunnel. And that's about all we can expect from the 2023 Packers. Just keep moving closer to that light."

That's what they say right before someone dies. Are the Packers dead?

I'm not going to quibble whether people are ends or linebackers. I view it as depending on the situation, Gary and Smith can be BOTH. But if they're standing up on the end of the line their primary responsibility is to defend the edge or pass rush.

My take on the team is to stop looking at this team as an extension of the past. This team is the second year of a trend that started a year ago, namely just not good enough. We're reaching the point where 'young team' fades as an excuse. I don't really get ticked off because losing is about all you can expect now.

Two teams stick out to me now: Denver and the Texans. Both have new coaches and with the exception of C.J. Stroud have really taken off with largely the same personnel as a year ago. The difference: two coaches who can get their teams to play smart, aggressive football. I see the 49'ers who are perennial contenders and the Eagles. What's the difference: shrewd personnel development and coaching that is rock solid.

Hopefully when Murphy leaves someone with the organization will realize this is starting to smell like the 1970's and 80's all over again. Where's the next Bob Harlan?

4 points
4
0
jont's picture

November 15, 2023 at 01:35 pm

"My take on the team is to stop looking at this team as an extension of the past. This team is the second year of a trend that started a year ago, namely just not good enough. We're reaching the point where 'young team' fades as an excuse. I don't really get ticked off because losing is about all you can expect now."

👍

3 points
3
0
CanPackFan's picture

November 15, 2023 at 11:21 am

I don't listen to LaFleurs' post game pressers any more - or should we call them "excuse-fests".

His "illusional" first 3 years were built solely on Rodgers and Adams. It masked all the weaknesses of this organization during the regular season. But when the playoffs came, LaFleur was always unmasked as a poor HC.

Fast forward to our current situation. A team with no identity. Whose defense is seemingly defenseless against the run (mostly due to strange defensive schemes which the HC endorses, until he doesn't). Young players with promise that are badly coached. Whose coaches justify poor scheming/play calling accusing young players of not executing. Truly bad leadership.

So this defense of Barry does not surprise me. But it does disappoint me greatly in what respect i still had for LaFleur. So, if fans are tuning out LaFleur, do u think it's much different for the players, deep down?

Like many realistic fans, we all knew this was the start of a rebuild/evaluation season. But who thought that the coaching and leadership would be so subpar, from top to bottom?

LaFleurs' ridiculous defense of Barry only goes to prove his total weakness as a leader. He prefers to unjustifiably protect a bad DC versus do what any competent HC would do - let him go! But alas, that's what a competent, strong HC would do...

6 points
6
0
Tundraboy's picture

November 16, 2023 at 11:24 pm

"Whose coaches justify poor scheming/play calling accusing young players of not executing. Truly bad leadership.'

Thank you. I've been trying to put my finger on what angered me most about his comments. I suppose I was stunned by his answer to the reporters question. I mean it was all there for anyone to see, and there was nothing to defend. And now it's hard to see how players will play harder to save his job. And maybe that is the silver lining.

0 points
0
0
rowe450's picture

November 15, 2023 at 12:16 pm

All you need to know about Pack run defense and who's to blame is exposed by Matt Lefleur.

Clearly the guy has NOT A CLUE about short yardage or goal line defense.

What an idiot. Those comments following the game should immediately get him fired.

What a joke. The gig is up. Lefleur is the PROBLEM.

1 points
3
2
Minniman's picture

November 15, 2023 at 01:17 pm

Regarding the DL point:
I could copy and paste my response to your things that make you go hmmm article yesterday - the Steelers have a TE named Darnell Washington, who at 6'7" and 265lb is essentially another T (a la Marcedes Lewis), and can bully OLB's. With 3 Tackles on the field, the Packers have no need for Nickel and needed to adjust with more beef in the middle (especially when the RT pulled inside on those 2 rushing TD's).

So in response MLF, did you not see that it WASN'T a RB opposing Gary or Smith, it was the TE\T, and YOU needed to adjust to that Jumbo package. Bad scouting and bad reaction MLF.

The "attack" response from MLF is typical when one gets embarrassed like that - it's easier to be overtly combative than to fess up and own the issue (but I guess he knows that he's run out of good will in that department).

Regarding Watson:
Yep, use that speed on crosser routes and attack the middle and hone your craft. Ask Justyn Ross (he of the 4.22 40), what's the point of having track speed with limited football IQ. They really do need a veteran receiver on that team

2 points
2
0
Minniman's picture

November 15, 2023 at 01:23 pm

On reflection, the worst part is that the Packers had a TE\T on their team for years (Lewis) - how did they not recognize this instantly???

1 points
1
0
Via.Lombardi's picture

November 15, 2023 at 03:27 pm

"Just keep moving closer to that light." -- "Light" meaning the 2024 Draft because that's all we can cheer for this season. Playoffs are not in the cards this season. Packers have a legit shot at a Top 10 draft pick; probably not a Top 5, but a Top 10 is quite possible. Just don't end the season around a .500 record.

0 points
0
0
Qoojo's picture

November 15, 2023 at 04:50 pm

MLF's response is disheartening to the point of wondering if he even knows the basics. As Al points out, DL means defensive lineman. 2 DL is basically giving up run yards. I do not remember which 1-to-go play it was, but Steelers went heavy with 2 TE and the packers went 2 DL and i think 6 men in the box.

What is really frustrating is that packers can play run defense when the defense has the correct personnel for playing the run.

The first time I was concerned about MLF's mental prowess was on Love's first start years ago and not being prepared for blitzes. Nothing since has suggested he is nothing more than a beneficiary of AR's ability.

2 points
3
1
White92's picture

November 15, 2023 at 06:16 pm

Good article Al.

This was Lafleur's "I'm a highly successful head coach" moment. The end has to be near.

0 points
0
0
Cheddarhed's picture

November 15, 2023 at 06:48 pm

Yes I really don't like blaming the refs but when I saw the lateral "as obvious to everyone but the officials" I was berserk I kept saying that was Packers ball if not a TD.

0 points
0
0
pacman's picture

November 15, 2023 at 07:43 pm

I was done with MLF a couple years back and it just keeps getting worse. So now we are in the same boat as before MM left. Everyone mad at Defensive Coordinator who was kept too long. Head coach not able to change. Why does this keep happening? (rhetorical)

One thing I do know is that #12 is a very smart QB. He had other issues and/or maybe he was right all along and management was wrong. I wonder if he would take the HC job? Based on history, Murphy isn't going to make a change this year or next. AR might be ready after that. I think it would be very intriguing if that happened. Just a thought...

0 points
0
0
White92's picture

November 15, 2023 at 08:04 pm

Why is Deguara still on the roster?

1 points
1
0
bleedgreen's picture

November 16, 2023 at 10:16 pm

This is why we need to clean house on this incompetent coaching staff. This guy knows less about football than most of us. And he is coaching the Green Bay Packers!

0 points
0
0