Agreed.
That is why I feel that the Packers are doomed this year without Aaron Rodgers.
Our trenches have not been substantially upgraded.

One thing that I think is key is the depth of the two teams. You did the only fair thing by only comparing starters, but IMO the issue with the 2017 team was not the starters, it was that due to missed draft picks, plus not great FA moves, the depth of the roster evaporated. I think today they're better off in that regard today than they were then. And that's a big part in having a good team. That or just getting really lucky with injuries.

It is as simple as the win loss records of 2018, vs 2019, and 2020. That is botomline! All the other comparisons are subjective and noise!

Disagree. Today's roster is clearly superior.
Waning Jordy vs. prime Adams = Adams, Injured/waning Cobb vs coming-into-prime = Scantling, improving Adams vs Lazard + Funchess = wash, Allison vs Amari = Amari.
Advantage Current Team
Injured/inconsistent Montgomery vs. Pro-Bowl/prime Jones --You kidding? Early Jones/Williams vs. Dillon/Amari--Give me Dillon/Amari. Ripkowski vs DeGuara = DeGuara.
Advantage Current Team
LBs "Tough call?" Really?! Zadarious is at LEAST Matthews equal. Gary is at LEAST Perry's equal. Barnes is equal to Martinez. and you still have P Smith--no one close to him on the 2017 squad as depth, plus Martin et. al. are superior to the 2017 depth.
The only part of the roster where 2017 was MAYBE better was OL, and that's only because we don't know how good Myers will be compared to then-Linsley (He wasn't All-Pro at that time). Jenkins/Patrick is way better than Evans/Taylor, and Turner isn't far behind injured Bulaga. I'd call OL a wash, unless Myers fails. Even then, I'd expect Jenkins or Patrick to be the C and be as good as Linsley was, with good G potential on the current roster.

I agree with most of this but I will argue that the current RB group is better then the 2017 group. Jones then was not the Jones now. Williams really wasn't much of a factor either. Jones now is by far greater then Jones and Williams back then. Dillon is better then Montgomery. The rest of the team we really don't know about, but I really think Hill is a guy to watch. He might be our next Jamal Williams.

WR's I think could be a push or even better for the current team. Nelson was not the same that year. Cobb was really not that great either. Adams now is better then he was then. The more I think about this the more I will take the current group over that group. Adams this year is by far the best WR in that group. Lazard is a good number 2 or 3. MVS is as good as any of those guys in that year. I don't know what Funchess will offer this year but I'm willing to bet that he will be then Allison was. And I think Rodgers could have as good of an impact as Cobb had his rookie year.
I would definitely take this years group over that years group.

The DL group you could possibly say that the current team is better. Lowry is basically the same. Keke I think is as good as Daniels was that year. The greatest difference is Clark. This years version is a lot better then that years version. To me I think that is the difference.

Overall. I would definitely take this years roster over 2017's. I think this team is much deeper and better then it was when Gutey took over. Gutey has done a really good job. That is something that we can't lose sight of when we talk about the job he has done. The team is a lot better now then was then!

I think the key difference is one you don't even look at and that's the coaching staff. McCarthy and his band had run their course and outlived their shelf life in GB. The schemes had become calcified and predictable. While there were deficiencies in the roster (as clearly noted), the staff couldn't elevate the starters (or line them up) to a point where they could make them better than the sum of their parts.

So far, LaF and his group is way ahead. So while we might want to compare personnel, you can't do it in a vacuum. You've got to look at the whole...not just players and individual skill sets, but how the game-planning and staff are making the parts fit together.

What I am reading is a historical performance versus a projected starter performance. This is apples and oranges. If the draft choices and acquisitions turn out as a plus, this 2021 team is vastly superior to the 2017 team. If only 50% perform better than the existing vets, then the 20121 team is better only slightly. This also means that the 2021 team gets to the playoffs regardless of whether Rodgers is in GB or not.

Looking at this, there is only one area that is clearly better, the starting O Line with Linsley and Bulaga. Today’s O Line is in flux at C and has yet to find a regular of equivalent talent to Bulaga. That said, Jenkins is probably better than anyone not named Bakh on the 17 line up.

WR. However, that was a WR lineup that was at the end of its time and was really the only source of offensive threat under the then system. The names look great but in practice it’s nearer to a wash than people think. And one has to take account of the different emphasis in the current system. The TEs were awful in 17 and Jones really was yet to develop among the running backs.

On D, the DL is not a lot stronger but there is the decline factor versus upside today. I’d give that a push, but the cause here is Lowry, why? Outside that the OLB corps is stratospherically better and Alexander, Savage, Amos had no comparatives in 17. ILB, we did have Martinez, but nothing else. What we lose on him we gain on the second, so I’d say a push. On ST, we had Vogel. That hands that to the current team.

The biggest difference though is depth and potential. In 17, the back end of the roster was weak to just bad. For the most part we are a lot deeper now, and that’s without considering the potential of the last two drafts.

We have much more potential that I’ve ignored here than we did in 17. We all know that was an aging Swiss cheese of a roster and utterly threadbare in places even at starter level. It also lacked difference makers on both sides of the ball, though Jones would become one later ( despite MM) and Adams would far surpass then expectations subsequently.

2017 was a bad, aging group of starters with little behind them and some massive holes at TE, CB, S, OLB at least.

Even allowing for subjectivity, comparing perhaps the worst roster this century with what we have now is sufficiently ridiculous to wonder if you aren’t just out there to bait clicks.

To be clear, if you really think the current roster is even close to the quality that 2017s was shown to be with the benefit of hindsight, we have no business seeking to pay Rodgers and should be in full gut and rebuild mode.

It isn’t, it wasn’t last year and most of our stars are at peak or ascending and there are promising players behind. Subjectivity isn’t enough to shield the fact that this comparison is not even close.

In addition, this piece panders to the tendency to forget just what a mess Ball/Murphy had made of the roster in the 3 years or so when TT was no longer the driver. That helps no one, particularly now.

A specious argument. It looks good but misses some facts.

1)The Packers have been drafting in low position for awhile due to overall success. It's more difficult to find turnaround players in that draft position.
2) The Packers don't operate in a vacuum. There are 31 other teams with excellent personnel evaluators.
3) Memories are short. 28-8 over two years says much of recent play. When Ted stepped down no one thought the Packers were contenders even with The Diva at QB. This team, with The Diva, has a shot if The Diva decides to give up his temper tantrum and play like he's capable.
4) Back then I couldn't think of more than one 'Blue Chip' player--Diva. Now the Packers have many.
That is the true upgrade of a roster.
5) Free agency. If there was no salary cap, Linsley and Bulaga would still be playing. Can't blame Gute with that.

Overall analysis is flawed and for that I give the column a D+.

This evaluation of our GM seems a very good idea -- but not unless we make a huge deal about the outstanding and astounding improvement from Gute's first team of 6-9-1 to the following two records of 13-3 and a playoff win each season, both of which ended in the final four of the NFC Championship Game.
I think if we fail to marvel at this achievement, we are really taking things for granted and being unappreciative of all the good things we've enjoyed over the past two seasons. As much as it hurt to lose to the Bucs in that playoff matchup last season, to focus on that more than all of the positives that preceded it seems to be the kind of thinking that can make for an unhealthy outlook on life.
Sadly, it seems one of those who don't get it is Aaron Rodgers. Instead of being ecstatic with this amazing turnaround and an opportunity this season to seize a Super Bowl, he is apparently throwing it all away for no good reason. Maybe there's still time for him to admit that he got carried away with himself, and to come back with a real appreciation for his bosses in the front office and on the coaching staff. He would also do well to reaffirm his commitment to his teammates and the fans.
Lighten up, Aaron, and take the first step with genuine humility. We like you, man, and we're forgiving. One last season of going all in with the Packers. Whatever happens, you can go on in life with there being good feelings all around.

In a way without rodgers playing this yr we will really see if the roster has improved from 2017.

We have a base comparison with 2017 when rodgers played 6 or 7 games. This will be interesting to monitor this yr.

In 2020 the Packers were the fourth youngest team in the NFL. In 2017 they were 12th but several of their players were at, or, past their prime. I would not be surprised if the Packers were even younger this year with their pool of young players competing at virtually every position. I think it is fair to say that the 2017 team was seen as a descending team - while Gutekunst teams have been ascending.

Also, in contrast to pre-2017 teams - Gutekunst has improved the overall properties of team - bringing in younger, more athletic, bigger and faster players - on both offense and defense. Thus creating more competitive teams.

Nor has his improvements been limited to the roster - as he's also brought in younger, more dynamic coaches - who I think can relate better to today's players.

IMO, there is little doubt that Gutekunst has vastly improved the roster, including coaching. There are few similarities between a 2021 Gutekunst team and a 2017 Thompson team. And it appears that the best is yet to come - for years to come.

Roger's can POUND SAND !

I don't care if we go 6 and 10 without him.

He rose from the ashes of #4 who also spit on the team and the fans. You would think Roger's would be smart enough not to go down the same path, yet he is.

Let him ROT on the bench next to Kampernic !!!

Above my pay grade but I don’t think you can really make a credible comparison without including cap management. Ted Thompson probably didn’t spend enough. The question is has Gutekunst spent too much of the Packers future dollars?

Whether this or that position is better, deeper this year than any other for comparative sake, the only comparison that will prove the truth in such an endeavor is whether it can withstand the proverbial 'punch in the face' being the loss of Rodgers.

I believe many don't quite understand how awesome Love will need to play to overcome that which crumbled teams the fan base deemed SB level, if only because the Division was a lock due to the other teams in it. I read often here the point that Rodgers wasn't any good for three seasons but shown his coming worth in 08' when he went 6-10, but Love is going to replace Rodgers contribution in a manner of weeks after wearing street clothes 95% of his time in GB since being drafted.

Do some of you really believe this team can survive the loss of Rodgers to a better degree than those that couldn't? If yes, then you're denying the fact of how much some of these players won't be doing without Rodgers, and the few games that Adams missed aren't near enough to think he doesn't need Rodgers is the mindset of a fool.

The problem with this analysis is, as Dobber correctly pointed out above, that MM and his staff were still in place for 2017/18. MM was going through the motions and should have been replaced after 2016. We know the problems with TT's health beginning in 2015 if not earlier.

It would be a more accurate comparison if MLF had been brought in as HC in 2017 or with Gute in 2018. Also as has been pointed out the team dealt with injury plagues during the 2017 and 2018 seasons. Under MLF the Packers have remained relatively healthy for his first 2 seasons as HC. Hopefully that will continue.

If I go through the position groups I would say that if Rodgers stays and remains healthy our QB situation is improved. Our RB situation is a wash because we only really know what Jones brings to the field. Dillon had 43 carries in 2020 which is not enough for me (at least) to assess what he brings over a full season and after him nearly no NFL experience. The WR group was better in 2017/18 with Cobb and Jordy. We still have Adams but after him a mediocre to average WR group.
TE is definitely stronger for the 2021 season thanks primarily due to Tonyan. The OL for 2021 is a huge question mark. How long will Bak be out? Will the OL hold up without him? Will there be a drop off from Linsley to Myers assuming that Myers earns the starting role at Center? How effective will the right side of the OL be? Who will ultimately become the starters on the interior of the OL; LG, C and RG, while Jenkins is at LT? We may not know until Week 1. Plenty of questions there. Because of that I give the 2017/2018 OL the advantage over the 2021 edition until we see them play.

OUR DL is weaker without Daniels. Clark plays basically alone unless Keke or another DL emerges during the season. OLB is improved with the Smiths and Gary but ILB is no better as of today. CBs are better because Jaire Alexander has been improving with every season. If Stokes can take over for King we'll be in great shape. Our safety play is much improved for 2021 versus 2017/18 as well. We need to see how effective Barry's scheme will be before making a call for the defensive unit overall.

Except for Mason Crosby our STs are still a mess unless the new ST coach can bring some consistency to the other areas of our STs. I'll call STs a wash.

Losing Rodgers will immediately offset any benefits potentially gained from roster improvement at other position groups. The drop off in QB play will be dramatic whether Bortles or Love is the QB. Rodgers ability to improvise and make throws on the run will be lost as well as his ability to read defenses. Those qualities are only replaced with time and experience regardless of the player's talent level.

Bottom line is that this roster if different, for better or worse, than the 2017/18 rosters. What matters is will they remain relatively healthy and will they execute better than the previous rosters when the games count? As someone commented earlier this year, "It's all a beautiful mystery." Thanks, Since '61

MLF is the key to the Pack's recent success. Gute's close working relationship with and belief in MLF is the key to his success.

Roster

OL - E. Jenkins was a home run. Billy Turner was OK but probably leaves after 21. Who will that RT be? Jenkins? As to the interior line positions, they were forced by the cap to let Linsley go. There's a chance Meyers will be a satisfactory replacement. Who will be the Gs of tomorrow? God knows we have a lot to choose from as Gutey has been on a shopping spree at G.

DL - Kekey and Slaton are the two guys we are hoping can make a difference.

QB - MLF's system looks like a dream for QBs. Rodgers/Love is a lot of talent.

RB - We have two #1 RBs!!! And we have depth. What's not to like.

TE - No comparison - we are loaded compared to all those years when the cupboard was bare.

WR - Very good in this scheme. Now we add Rodgers and Funchess and maybe others!

LB - So much better than the past. And depth too.

SEC - Definitely the most talented secondary since Collins/Woodson/Williams era.

This team is ready to win now. Why Rodgers wants to be an ass is beyond me. Pack and AR should agree on a one year "arrangement" and then call it quits i.e., trade. One last go-round in GB with the table set.

My Conclusion is this. That we gave Gutey 3 years to get to the super-bowl. Not Remake the Roster. Several of the players let go, did play for other teams. And I'm sure that if you look at players around the NFL; Very few are still NFl players too. So it's unfair to say Gutey had a crystal ball. The thing I'm seeing is the constant turn over for Rodgers. That Nelson offered to play for much less, just to stay with him. It wasn't about the money for some. Gutey made it more difficult for Rodgers. The chemistry between Rodgers and this offense suffered. Capers should have been fired sooner. And Pettine's leaving; makes this still a merry-go round. Are hope has always been Rodgers. He was the bright spot. Not Gutey as you want us to believe. If you have to make excuses for a GM. You have the wrong GM. Please bring back Ron Wolf before it's to late.

The overall advantage goes to the current team. Gute has done a solid job replenishing the talent on this roster, although I would have liked to see a little higher priority given to the middle of the defense. Even here, though, we do have youth and hopefully ascending players. Whether or not this is good enough to reach the Super Bowl, either now or in the not-too-distant future, is yet to be determined.

IMO this is a one dimensional view of Roster improvement. Some other "layers" to consider:

It is generally accepted that TT left an aging roster with little quality depth, perhaps because of his health issues.

The new GM was challenged to build a younger roster and improve depth at the same time. It is generally acknowledged that has been accomplished. (Are younger players less susceptible to injury?).

#12 negotiated hard for his contract extension that takes up about 20% of the team's cap space, limiting $ the Packers have available for free agency.

There was no COVID in 2017 to further handicap GM's from building their rosters.

Conclusion? Apples vs. Oranges.

I don't feel you can make an adequate evaluation until after this season.

The bottom line is Gute’s record. We went 13-3 the last 2 years and have been 1 win away from the Super Bowl. He has reassigned Rodgers who said he wanted to be a Packer for life, resigned some great players, brought in some great free agents, added depth, drafted some very good rookies, added quality depth to the roster, and brought in a new coaching staff all while staying under the cap. He has been wildly successful by most measures. Sure, he hasn’t been perfect, but this team’s record and potential is light years better than the 2017 team. It is not even close.