Compared to Kyle Shanahan, Sean McVay and Andy Ried, YES!

September 28, 2018 at 08:32 am(edit)
I am going to post this on both threads- but I don't understand the offensive coach criticism. In the last two games, and WAS especially, we had WR running free all over the field. Literally, every other play had someone open... But it was just missed by AR or the ball dropped or ...

Creativity and evolution are a necessity, but he clearly has done enough "tweaking" to scheme his players open and to Aaron 's strengths.

I am not a MM applogist, and could easily see this as his last year if the team underperforms, but his scheme hasn't really been the issue.

As it relates to creativity I think it's a two way street between QB and play-caller. MM can innovate and overhaul the entire playbook to look completely different, but if Rodgers continues to play off-schedule what's the point of new play design? Since 2015 There's been plenty of film evidence to suggest Rodgers turns down open first reads in hopes of a bigger play, or just misses reads.

Far be it from to question Rodgers judgment and playmaking ability. But look at the second half of the Bears game. He plays on schedule and has a dang near perfect rating. Compare it to the first half when he was dancing around wasting drives. What came first, the chicken or the egg?

No- I Like MM. While the packers have MM. Everyone keeps firing staff. I think A-Rod changes a lot of plays. I also believe TT hurt this offense. Late draft choices and retreads who just can't perform better. You try and get the most out of the talent you have. MM has made players better. But the only person to get them to respond has been A-Rod. Let's look at how many have been Hurt over MMs time. No TE after Finley. No RB after Green. It's been by commitee. You saw what happened when he turned over the play calling and took it back. MM knows what he's doing to survive this long. This team has been constantly changing. The lack of All-pros. The biggest problem MM has is staying with coaches who needed to go. But we just don't know what goes on behind closed doors. MM has my confidence. The players need to step up.

I have often wondered this.

I have heard in the past Rodgers say he doesn't really like motion and likes his receivers where they are so he can scan the defense better.

I don't think the elite QB stiffles the coordinator from being creative. I just wonder how much the QB has an influence on what they run.

I do think that the Packers offense could use more creativity in it. For example a couple of years ago they had Cobb run a fake to the left and the came back with a hand off to Starks to the right. It was a great play design. They could use more misdirection type of stuff in the offense. We also saw when Montgomery first became a RB they designed routes for him to run out of the backfield. We haven't seen as many of those lately.

That all being said, I don't think the lack of creativity is the problem in the offense. They have had open receivers. Zach Kruse's twitter timeline shows a ton of missed WR's running open for various reasons.
I do think Rodgers injury is limiting some things on offense right now too.

A local radio show that I listen to summed it up really good.
Does Rodgers desire for being great, take away from being good? Meaning does he take out good plays (an open 5 yard play for example) to allow time for a WR to open up deep later in the play.
I do think there is a lot of truth in that. We see a lot of times if he gets rid of the ball fast to WR's they typically just move right down the field. But at times he holds the ball to much.

Lets not overlook what McVay can get away with that McCarthy can't. All game he was calling a run up the gut with no space for Gurley to make a play, and sure enough he cut outside and got 7 yards. I think 2nd and 3 being all but guaranteed lets him get away with calling his fly motion sweep more comfortably knowing Gurly can just run it up the gut on 3rd down too.
What about 3rd and 7 and he calls a screen... and its a gain of 6.5 yards. Could you imagine MM calling a screen to Montgomery on 3rd and 7? We wouldn't hear the end of it.
The problem with the presnap motion McVay runs is it forces the QB into a presnap read and committs to it. That would take the freedom away from Rodgers to spread the ball as he pleases. When Rodgers is in synch with the game plan and can spread the ball (like vs MIN) they throw points up on the board all game. When he missing his wide open matchups (like @WSH), MM gets flak for his uncreative offense. BUT they are running Rodgers' system completely. Taking freedom from him to mold the offense every snap may help in some games where he doesn't bring his A game, but when he does theyre still stuck with their scripted motions and read options. With MM's system, Rodgers can run the table when he needs to and get away with thinks other QBs can't.

I cannot help but believe that the amount of ' trust ' Rodgers factors into who he wants or is available to throw to certainly factors into the over all expansion of MM.
I believe also that MM is limited to the types of plays mentioned by Jersey Al in his first tweet, comes by the lower talent than which was displayed by the Rams on offense.
I wouldn't just blame/defend MM, but one cannot deny the that Rodger's high trust mandate, MM needing to work with Rodgers trust mandate, the over all lack of what the Rams offensive talent is and lastly, what whoever the GM gets for the team keeps this offense from being or coming close to what the Rams or KC show.

Even if you blame Rodgers for passing up open guy (which he does) and not throwing check downs to backs enough (which he does), that's still MM's fault. MM is the COACH. If your QB has flaws it's your job to strip those out of him, because they aren't talent flaws, they are decision flaws.

MM is too lenient with Rodgers on top of being way too stubborn and not nearly creative enough. Ultimately it's going to get him fired at the end of the season. I don't see this team getting to the NFC championship and I think that's how far they need to get for MM to keep his job.

Jersey Al, YEP....somewhat thinking the same thing last night... Great Post!

Al - creativity is often, not always, but often the result of talent. Rodgers has all the talent in the world but his supporting cast has not had anywhere near the level of talent that Rodgers does.

If you look at the Rams their skill players are much faster than any of the Packers skill players. That enables their OCs and other teams to run the jet sweeps, zone runs etc. that you mention.

Just looking at the Packers currently their offense looks very different when they are using Aaron Jones. Why? Because he is a good runner with great vision and quickness. The Packers WRs are good but they are not as fast as many WRs throughout the league.

Could or should MM be more creative? Yes, but does he have the players he needs, besides Rodgers I'm not so sure. Since 2011 the Packers skill players have not better than most.

When MM has had good skill players his offense was a top 10 offense in the league and often a top 5. Rodgers gets a lot of credit for that but Rodgers does not play alone. The Packers offense has suffered for later round positions, usually #24 or higher and to make matters worse the defense has consistently had the first 2-4 picks for the Packers. You can't keep drafting WRs and RBs in rounds 4 and above and expect them to compete consistently with WRs and RBs selected in rounds 1-3.

The Packers offense is good and Rodgers makes it work but Gute needs to spend some capital on the skill positions to support AR. Then maybe, emphasis on maybe, we will see MM become more creative. Thanks, Since '61

No comment

Frankly, I just don' think McCarthy has much creativity regardless who the QB is.

Did we see much difference in play-calling last year with Hundley playing instead of Rodgers? I didn't, which is kind of baffling considering they have two vastly different skill sets and levels of experience.

Do we see any adjustments in play calling with Aaron injured, changes on the OL or with new players added? Doesn't seem so to me.

I think MM is a good coach who's success has been vastly aided by the QB's he's been given to work with. I also think he's a good play caller and his plays are generally successful.

But I wouldn't use the word "creative" to describe McCarthy in any way.

Al, the answer to the question you posed is yes. But I’ll take Rodgers scanning the field and calling a play anyway.

Al, to a large extent you are right. But as others have said, he seems to be getting somewhat better. No matter what the scheme, it’s up to the players to execute them. I blame TT for the lack of talented players. These last few drafts have not brought the players that fit the scheme well. If MM has a major fault it’s his stubbornness. In the end it’s players not plays. And MM is stubbornly plugging the wrong players in the right plays. He is also stubborn in his play calling and only adjusts after halftime or the next game.

Oh, and count me with those who cringe at all the fat jokes. It’s makes those writers look petty.

I say that it is stifling creativity. Rodgers regularly does not throw in rhythm, but needs to move around. But AR is just so good at making something of that situation. I had hoped Philbin would help, but the offense is slow starting out. And by the way, why does it take both the defense and offense to start playing well until the second half?

When Joe Philbin was rehired and when he said his job was to make sure MM is smartest play caller. I was optimistic. When I started reading MM and Joe Philbin were redoing their play book, I was highly optimistic.
But alas ,I saw same thing. Same iso routes, underutilizing your several TE, not trusting run game and still putting everything on No. 12 despite if him playing on one leg.
we sure aren't playing to our strength. Arrogance has always taken over Creativity in this team . that's just what I feel.

AR is the only reason that MM isn't back coaching at some Division 2 college or maybe up in the CFL like Mikey Sherman.

MM has been riding AR's coattails for a long time. --- I've seen this show before. --- It's sad.

I don’t believe creativity is being stifled. They have ran reverses with MVS with limited to no success. Williams and Jones are good runners....but they are no Todd Gurley. The Rams oline....way better than ours. On the rams defense ...with Suh,Donald and bigger edge rushers...the don’t drop into coverage...they rely on their corners and safety’s to do their jobs. It’s a hybrid 4-3 and they can generate a strong pass rush with only 4 which means you can have 7 guys to cover. Wade Phillips is a good DC...wasn’t that long ago we wanted him here, I wanted Greg Roman here But was catching to much flack because of the whole bounty program he had going . I still think we will get some creative things out of Pettine...but he’s got some positions to fill.

Rodgers can run certain plays yet, the one keeper he gave him self he fumbled, but if that was a health QB....he had 10 to 15 yards of open grass in front of him.as he gets healthier it should open up other stuff. The selfish part in me is that I want to see creative things ran out of a double tight end set

I was listening to the "Locked on Packers " podcast yesterday and I head what I thought I saw about the game last Sunday...The Packers had wide open receivers running through the defense all game long but Rodgers wasn't throwing the the ball. Obviously if wide open McCarthy is doing something right and it's on Rodgers for not pulling the trigger.

BUT...All night long on Thursday night I kept thinking what life would be like as a Packers fan with McVay as the HC or an OC like Deflippo with Rodgers as the QB. The thing that has drove me crazy about McCarthy is I can almost predict what play is coming next. The only time he really surprised me the last several years was when the Packers threw the ball to Adams against Minnesota with just 2 minutes to go. Had that worked we're praising McCarthy and acknowledging the changes he's made. In stead since it didn't we're screaming how stupid it was (most of us anyways myself included).

To answer Al's question I don't think Rodgers has stifled a thing. I think THIS IS ALL McCarthy has got. McCarthy runs the same offense more less no matter who's QB.

We all have to step back and remember Rodgers has played 2 1/2 games on a bum knee, that has to play a major factor.

No. McCarthy's sometimes awful game management, along with a steadily dwindling number of playmakers at WR and TE over the years has reduced the playbook down to what it is now. Adams mostly. Having a Defense that cannot get off the field on 3rd down only made it worse, leaving few opportunities each game for the offense to put together drives. But to me It's all on MM. He's the coach, he decides who to play and to me what is stifling. Play some of the WRs we drafted, and more than an occasional few token snaps. This team is not deep enough, and the season too short to not get the new talent we added up to speed. He's got Rodgers for Christ's sake, together with some new weapons use them.

Hmmm, where to start. . .

We brought in a blocking TE because we hadn't had one for a quite a while and we hardly play the guy, even though our run game has pretty much sucked this year (except for when Jones has carried the ball)

It is legend how AR can make plays on the run better than most anybody who ever played the game. Question: why does he need to? Are our receivers so inept and our OL so pathetic that no one is open so often that AR is seemingly always on the run?

Lastly, is it MM's fault for not calling very many running plays or is it AR's fault for changing out of them at the line more often than running them?

Yes, I think MM has relied too much on AR instead of being creative. I think some of the comments above have merit as to the rest of the personnel. We've never really had a scatback like Sproles. We have never really had a dual threat TE, one who could both block well and stretch the seam due to great athletic ability. Finley was the closest and MM did well with him for a time. Cook might have been but he got injured and seemed to be getting comfortable enough only later in the season. We've never really had the burner at WR. Instead, we've had WRs with pretty good speed and/or athleticism who were very good route runners. I continue to believe that Monty is a player MM could get really creative with, but hasn't, either due to injuries or perhaps I am simply mistaken.

I have to admit the guy who compared this situation to his lack of innovation in his own bass fishing intrigued me. But then, I don't actually know anything about fishing, so maybe his point was valid.

I don't think Peanut can think outside the box that he is standing in. Rodgers and Farve have made his career!