The Green Bay Packers Need to Find the Right Role for their DBs in 2023
By GilMartin
The Green Bay Packers defense was a bit of an enigma in 2022. The Packers 17th in the NFL in yards allowed and points allowed for the season. Statistically, the pass defense ranked 6th in the league by allowing 197 yards per game but the team’s struggles in key situations, especially early in the season was one reason the team lost some games they could have easily won.
Late in the season, with his back against the wall and rumors mounting that he would be fired at the end of the season, defensive coordinator Joe Barry changed some of his strategies. He blitzed less frequently and allowed more press coverage rather than play the passive zone that too often allowed opponents to convert on third and long when the defensive backs gave 10 yard cushions on 3rd-and-8.
Heading into 2023, Barry needs to find a way to put together a defense that maximizes the strengths of his players. That is not something he did consistently in 2022, especially in the first 12 games of the season.
Jaire Alexander is the Packers best cover corner. Early in the season, the soft zone didn’t play to his strengths. Later in the season, when the approach changed, Alexander played some of his best football and he ended up earning Pro Bowl honors based largely on his reputation and his strong finish to the season.
Barry tried to utilize veteran cornerback Rasul Douglas against slot receivers at times early in the season. Douglas’ lack of elite speed made that a difficult assignment. The soft zone was also not ideal for Douglas who prefers to press receivers off the snap of the ball to better disrupt their pass patterns.
Second-year man Eric Stokes also regressed significantly last season. After a strong rookie campaign, Stokes struggled in the soft zone concept and had even more difficulty tracking the ball once it was in the air. As a result, the former first round pick went from allowing opposing quarterbacks to complete just 49.5 percent of their passes when throwing to receivers covered by Stokes in 2021 to an unacceptable 80 percent in 2022 according to pro-football-reference.com.
Stokes was injured and lost for the season after nine games. Getting the former Georgia star back into form and helping him regain his confidence will be a big key for the Green Bay secondary in 2023.
Both starting safeties also had down years in 2022. Adrian Amos went from one of the most consistent players and positionally sound players on the roster to being inconsistent and very average at best.
Meanwhile, Darnell Savage played so poorly that he was benched after 11 games. Savage did play better late in the season when he came back into a starting role after injuries hit other players in the secondary. He even had a 75-yard pick-six against the Minnesota Vikings in Week 17 that helped the Packers score a big win. Still, overall, Savage had a disappointing season especially for a former first round pick.
While Savage will be back in 2023 on his fifth-year option, Amos is an unrestricted free agent and it is unlikely the Packers will be able to bring him back unless he’s willing to play on a team-friendly deal.
One possible problem was a disagreement between Barry and former secondary coach Jerry Gray about what concepts the defense should be playing. Gray was rumored to want to try a different strategy than Barry’s initial soft zone and the disconnect between the defensive coordinator and the secondary coach may have further confused things for the players.
With the 2022 season behind the Packers, head coach Matt LaFleur and Barry should spend the next few months figuring out their approach to pass defense for the coming season. The team needs to find a system that Barry is comfortable with and that plays to the strengths of what is on paper, a very talented secondary.
If they do, the Green Bay defense has a better chance of living up to the very high expectations they had last season. If they don’t, regardless of who the quarterback is, the Packers could struggle through another disappointing season on defense.
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Comments (114)
Coldworld
February 16, 2023 at 12:21 pm
Did anyone other than Barry want to go with soft zone?
If you want to look at why we struggled, that’s a great starting point and, quite honestly, a lot of the journey. Jaire can play soft, but it wastes him. The rest are much better being aggressive. The zonal aspects don’t suit Amos by sucking him to covering like a corner at times and the resulting run requirements on Savage were just a counter to skill set.
If Barry intends to continue to play soft zone, then this team will continue to struggle with these players. Amos aside we are going to be playing with them. If continuity means we try the same thing again I fear we will simply get the same results. I just can’t see what made that look like a good idea with the players we had. If that idea hasn’t changed, I don’t see us realizing the sum of individual potential in the secondary.
I can’t help feeling that if that really was the issue behind Gray moving, we picked the wrong side of that debate in light of our roster. Some here were suspecting freelancing and lack of discipline later on; if this is true, that gains credibility. Players pick up on these things fast. LaFleur’s continuity could be s a much worse idea than I originally thought.
Packers2020
February 16, 2023 at 02:28 pm
The more concerning thing for me is ML.
He continues to employ a D coordinator that has showed no creativity and not playing to the strength of his players. This happened last year as well. We started the season playing soft zone and then eventually tightened up to more aggressive man after ML said something.
I remember last year ML saying we have to play more man up and tight man coverage yet this year we did the same thing. That tells me that ML has no kahuna's to say this is what I see the defense looking like and this is what we are going to do.
ML seems to be a relationship guy and that is fine until you need to not be that guy.
Leatherhead
February 16, 2023 at 04:24 pm
""Did anyone other than Barry want to go with soft zone? ""
Among coaches, there's a lot of collegiality and cooperation, but at the end of the day, it's Barry's call on that, unless he's specifically told his boss wants something else. IMO, Barry has done what they wanted him to do.
""Did anyone other than Barry want to go with soft zone? ""
I think that a more fair question would be, "What were the results of the soft zone that was a key feature of our pass defense.?""
We were 3rd in fewest completions.
6th in yards.
5th in interceptions.
2nd in % of passes intercepted.
15th in opposing passer rating.
2nd in yards after catch (YAC)
Additionally, a soft zone allows the defense to keep their eyes on the QB so that if he breaks the pocket they can help limit the damage, and that's important against these running QBs.
By any objective measure, this is one of the better pass defenses in the conference, despite not getting real good pressure at times. Is there any thought that maybe Barry should be given some credit?
17 games and only one opponent over 30. Half of our opponents to 20 or less. Should Barry be given any credit for that?
13TimeChamps
February 16, 2023 at 04:39 pm
Teams knowing they could run at will against this defense may have had just a little to do with those lovely pass defense stats. Why risk an interception or incomplete pass when you can just pick up 5-6 yards on the ground?
Of course, now that average-ish is the baseline for our defense, I guess it doesn't really matter.
Leatherhead
February 16, 2023 at 05:26 pm
A good rushing team averages 5 yards /play
An average QB averages 7 yards/attempt.
The vast majority of TDs are passing TDs. Running the ball does a lot for your defense, by keeping them off the field, but it doesn't put points on the board like passing does.
So why would you want teams to pass on you instead of run? I would think it would be better to be a good pass defense team than a good run defense.
You'd like it if we could just stop teams and make them pass 40 times a game, for 280 yards (average) and a couple of TDs. I think it's better to let them run until they stop themselves with a penalty or turnover. I'd rather give up a 16 play TD drive than a 4 play TD drive.
jannesbjornson
February 17, 2023 at 07:05 am
Time of possession for the opponent is maximized by letting them pound it down your throat and your D line will be fatigued by the fourth quarter when they need pass rush. If this squad was pulling in a turnover every other series, maybe a flex strategy can work.
Coldworld
February 16, 2023 at 04:47 pm
.. with a soft zone and these players. Which of our DBs do you think is optimally suited to a soft zone approach? I think none.
That inherently makes it suboptimal and a poor use of talent if I am right. That is one possible explanation as to why we had an average pass D with so much talent in paper. Your stats just support us being middle of the road. I don’t think that’s what our secondary roster merits at all.
A scheme that used players against seeming strengths is a bad D or a good D on the wrong team and that means an unwise coach.
Leatherhead
February 16, 2023 at 05:32 pm
Why do you think we had an average pass D? By most of the common metrics, we were clearly above average.
13TimeChamps
February 16, 2023 at 05:45 pm
And clearly a well below (26th) rushing defense. I'm surprised you don't see the correlation between the two. Again, why pass when you don't have to and risk interceptions, incompletions, sacks, injury to your QB?
MooPack
February 16, 2023 at 08:10 pm
Agree. Makes me think of Monty Python - Meaning of Life:
Pakenham-Walsh: A tiger - in Africa?
Ainsworth: Hm...
Pakenham-Walsh: A tiger in Africa...?
Ainsworth: Ah... well it's probably escaped from a zoo.
Pakenham-Walsh: Well it doesn't sound very likely.
Right. Convenient dismissal of the obvious, eh? Cognitive biases can impair rational judgment, lead to poor decisions, and cause us to believe falsehoods.
Leatherhead
February 16, 2023 at 08:14 pm
I see the correlation. It’s intentional.
So why are teams choosing the riskier alternative of passing if they could just run every play?
Because they can’t. That’s why. They’ll get a penalty, or someone will get beat, or something. Maybe they fall behind and have to throw.
I’d rather a team ran 40 times for 200 yards and a TD on us than throw 40 times for over 280 with two or more TDs.
Coldworld
February 17, 2023 at 07:42 am
If they run like that, our O isn’t getting in the field much and out D is going to be gassed. The truth is that you can’t be a good team and allow either. Thus a D that is that weak in one facet is a D that any decent team has a strong chance to overcome.
13TimeChamps
February 16, 2023 at 06:00 pm
Remember that SF playoff game when they attempted like 8 passes the entire game and ran the ball down GB's throat? Yeah, me too. I guess that was an example of great pass defense?
Stats are fun to play with.
Leatherhead
February 16, 2023 at 08:17 pm
One game in four years. Good example of why trying to have a serious discussion with you is pointless.
You don’t understand. That’s OK. But you don’t want to understand, and that’s not.
I’m done with you. Again.
13TimeChamps
February 16, 2023 at 08:46 pm
You're done with me? Why are you making this personal? Again, I was simply responding to one of your posts as I have to other's posts.
And I actually do understand. It's you that don't. And it's not one game in four years. The reason our pass defense was somewhat above average last year is because our run defense was bottom five in the league. I'm sorry you can't grasp that. I could point that out to you again with examples, but why?
I'm sorry you get frustrated with facts. That's on you, not me.
Leatherhead
February 16, 2023 at 11:30 pm
"""The reason our pass defense was ...above average last year is because our run defense was bottom five""""
OK. You've made your point. Anyone who wants to agree with that can. I don't, and actually think it's ludicrous if you apply it to other things.
Coldworld
February 17, 2023 at 01:18 pm
Teams that could tried to run on us. Some teams kicked our behind in the air too without it. But virtually everyone figured out that running on that D helped the pass game and might render it unnecessary. Sometimes we held up, but not consistently. Now I’d agree with you that a lot of that wax the tremendously ineffective offense putting the D out for far too many snaps, but there’s no argument that the Packers were seen as a team to run on by other teams.
LLCHESTY
February 16, 2023 at 06:56 pm
They must not have been playing soft zone against the Eagles then. You keep defending the defense when the simple fact is the production didn't match the talent and the run D was vomit worthy. It's a soft team with a soft defense and a change might have led to some fire and physicality. LaFleur is betting his job on Barry.
LLCHESTY
February 16, 2023 at 06:56 pm
Daily doubler
mnbadger
February 16, 2023 at 12:25 pm
". . . head coach Matt LaFleur and Barry should spend the next few months figuring out their approach to pass defense for the coming season. The team needs to find a system that Barry is comfortable with and that plays to the strengths of what is on paper, a very talented secondary."
Corrections
1 - HC mlf MUST spend the next few months figuring out their approach . . .
2 - barry needs to PUT the team into a system that plays to strengths . . .
Anything less and we're doomed, as Gil stated, irregardless of who's behind center.
GPG!
packerbackerjim
February 16, 2023 at 01:06 pm
Playing the blame game is useless if you’re looking for just one culprit. MLF, Barry and Gray watched the same crap we did. MLF and Barry are coming back for seconds. WTF.
jannesbjornson
February 16, 2023 at 02:31 pm
Forget Barry and his defense. A waste of resources. Get playmakers and score points on Offense. Draft an edge guy early and add a couple CBs later. The 49rs play 4 man fronts and combo zones, but never soft serve shells.
T7Steve
February 16, 2023 at 12:32 pm
Fix the pass rush and run stopping up on the front line and play to the secondary's' strengths. Doing the first allows the second. That also allows the ILBs to cook and gives the safeties a chance to make plays.
BirdDogUni
February 16, 2023 at 12:43 pm
Let's be honest -- If Joe Barry is making the defensive decisions, we might as well make Stockholder happy and just draft all offense this year. (At least one of us would be happy...) ;P
15 Bijan Robinson RB | Texas
45 Darnell Washington TE | Georgia
78 Chris Smith II S | Georgia
116 Dontayvion Wicks WR | Virginia
151 Roschon Johnson RB | Texas
171 Dylan Horton EDGE | TCU
234 Warren McClendon OT | Georgia
237 Braeden Daniels IOL | Utah
244 Brandon Hill S | Pittsburgh
256 Elijah Higgins WR | Stanford
259 Max Duggan QB | TCU
The_Baloney_Stops_Here
February 16, 2023 at 12:59 pm
If they draft a running back in the 1st round just to give him 7 carries a game, I will lose my shit lol. That being said, Bijon is a freak and i wouldnt mind seeing him in green and gold.
BirdDogUni
February 16, 2023 at 01:38 pm
LMAO... That pick was especially for Stockholder. (He has a Bijan obsession...)
I have no illusions that Gutey will draft a RB/WR/or TE in the 1sts round. But, if we trade AR12, have two 1st round picks, and Quentin Johnston happened to be available, I could actually see Gutey giving AR12 the bird walking out by drafting him in the 1st round for Love. Seems like the perfect way to culminate the shit-show of moving on from our 2nd straight FHOF QB...
It seems they've made exactly the wrong decisions at exactly the wrong times so far, why quit now?
jannesbjornson
February 16, 2023 at 02:37 pm
If he passed on Johnson@ #15, look for the pink post-it notes.
Coldworld
February 16, 2023 at 04:52 pm
You really think he will be around after #10, let alone 15? If he is, and Branch or Meyer is available then it would be hard to pass up on either of those as well.
jannesbjornson
February 16, 2023 at 05:08 pm
No way Johnson makes it past #8. The QB over reach may come into play on the order of battle as per the loser's roulette and most will whiff on the pick, but this guy is a difference maker.
stockholder
February 16, 2023 at 05:32 pm
Robinson is going to go before 10.
Next best pick.@15
15. Jalan Hyatt. Wr. Tenn. If he runs as advertised.
45. Andre Carter ll. Army. Remember the Stork?
78. Gervon Dexter DT FL. If he's gone.
Every simulation shows Browns, S go in 3rd rd.
jannesbjornson
February 16, 2023 at 05:55 pm
How long do these light weight WRs last in the scrum? Speed to the spot and he took Tillman's reps when he was nursing his knee @ Tennessee with Hooker whipping the ball around. Donta Smith had tough luck with the CBs putting the body on him during the SB. Why bring up Bart the GM when we're on a roll?
stockholder
February 16, 2023 at 06:38 pm
Johnston has the body but not the hands.
Hooker is the key to the hands on both Tillman
And Hyatt. And why both should be drafted.
The field speed gives Hyatt the edge.
And he is just as tall as the safeties.
stockholder
February 16, 2023 at 06:38 pm
.
jannesbjornson
February 16, 2023 at 07:00 pm
Take Both...Hyatt in a trade down to #22-24, pick up another two. Tillman in the second Rd. I still want Uzomah in the second for the Edge.
stockholder
February 16, 2023 at 07:49 pm
Carter's dad played for the patriots
Coldworld
February 17, 2023 at 08:06 am
Johnston looks to have decent hands but an early James Jones like concentration problem. He makes great catches and then drops inexplicable ones. Actually though, I recall Adams noting that his early drop issues were driven by route running. Johnston’s route skills need a lot of work too. We forget perhaps that Watson also had drop issues.
Now it’s true that those don’t always go away, but when a guy can make tough and contested catches there’s a strong chance they may. Given his direction and physicality, Johnston remains an intriguing prospect. Unfortunately, not one I think that we will get to play with. If he’s gone it’s another position at 15 for me or trade back.
Hyatt is a one year of production smaller receiver (185 generously) who is coming from an extreme spread offense and a very limited route tree. He’s also an easy take down if defenders get hands in him and is poor against press at the line. For all that he’s truly fast and has decent hands, I will pass on him in round 1 or 2. He’s a round 3 guy who may rise due to elite speed alone. He’s actually quite similar to Bo Melton with better hands but much less impressive with running with ball in hand.
Tillman is a guy who ran a tiny route tree. He’s big and strong and has a great catch area. Great body control for a big WR. His combine testing will likely move him up or down dramatically. My concern with him, other than a lot to learn in terms of routes and complexity is that he doesn’t bring much after the catch.
He has one season if production and that was based on being able to out physical defenders. I’m not sure that translates easily. He’s not a #1 prospect and maybe his upside is as a 3 in a Lazard type role. Day 3 at this point, maybe higher if he blows away expectations athletically at the combine—he’s anticipated to run in the mid 4.5s. If he beats that notably then he’s rising. Slower and he’s falling dramatically.
Of these 3 only Johnston is a legitimate day one prospect for me at this point.
LLCHESTY
February 16, 2023 at 09:52 pm
Yeah, because teams know how well it works out drafting a RB in the top 10. Instant playoffs.
stockholder
February 17, 2023 at 06:54 am
Never leave a generational talent on the board.
Coldworld
February 17, 2023 at 08:44 am
You have always railed about injury proneness. He’s got some of that. He’s got great vision, can and will block, can catch, but he’s not, in my view, a generational prospect. He’s a bigger version of Jones but like Jones lacks elite long speed but also lacks Jones’ phenomenal elusiveness and burst. Not to say that he has neither, but not at that level. He’s also not always as impressive when contacted as his frame would suggest. He prefers to elude, which will be harder.
He’d be a great pick up in theory. I think he will have a good NFL career as a #1 back if he stays healthy, but I do not see him as a generational talent. I don’t think he’s a round one prospect for us and certainly not unless we trade back. I think he gets taken very late in round one or in the second. I don’t think he’s a great fit for us, certainly not if we keep Jones. We have other needs and there are other prospects I’d take before him that tie better with those.
stockholder
February 17, 2023 at 10:42 am
The generational is the description.
I didn't make it up.
Coldworld
February 17, 2023 at 01:22 pm
If someone uses a term it doesn’t mean it’s true or even defensible. That’s the thing with labels. Can’t just adopt them, have to dig deeper. Just using a term someone else used is not analysis it’s parroting. By the way, if that person is worthy of more, you should probably acknowledge that it’s their opinion not yours that you are co-opting.
LLCHESTY
February 16, 2023 at 07:10 pm
I like Wicks and draft him often. Might take him a year to adjust to an NFL playbook but he'll help on STs while he learns. Good football player that's also a food athlete.
Also like Dontay Demus late as a gamble that could pay off.
BirdDogUni
February 16, 2023 at 10:50 pm
*Can never have to many food athletes... ;P
BirdDogUni
February 16, 2023 at 12:46 pm
15: R1 P15 RB Bijan Robinson - Texas
45: R2 P14 TE Darnell Washington - Georgia
78: R3 P15 EDGE Will McDonald IV - Iowa State
116: R4 P14 WR Andrei Iosivas - Princeton
151: R5 P15 OT Ryan Hayes - Michigan
171: R5 P35 S Ronnie Hickman - Ohio State
234: R7 P15 WR Elijah Higgins - Stanford
237: R7 P18 EDGE Thomas Incoom - Central Michigan
244: R7 P25 C Ricky Stromberg - Arkansas
257: R7 P38 TE Josh Whyle - Cincinnati
T7Steve
February 16, 2023 at 01:02 pm
Wow! 1st round RB. Do you think he'll go that high? If he's that much of a game changer, do you think he'll still be there at 15?
BirdDogUni
February 16, 2023 at 01:39 pm
LMAO... (I don't think there is a chance Gutey drafts a RB in the 1st round this year...)
But, like I said above, Stockholder loves Bijan, so at least he'd be happy... Lol
Leatherhead
February 16, 2023 at 04:31 pm
I do like your mocks. But since I always trade down, I get so many more picks and it's hard for me to look at a draft like these and be happy.
jannesbjornson
February 16, 2023 at 05:45 pm
All righty then:
#15 to Crows for #22+ 1st 2024.
#22 Mayer TE
#33 Uzomah Edge ( moved a #1 from Crows + #4 GB, 2024) to HOU
#45 to NE for #46 and #107
#46 Tillman WR
#78 Benton 3 tech
#107 Sean Tucker RB
#116 Harrison Edge
#151 Ch Jones WR
#171 R Wright CB
#225 Averett TE
#234 Ojomo DT
#244 N Daniels CB
#256 J.Banks LB
#259 Moody K
With my OTs already off the board. Porter,Jr and Gonzalez gone, Mayer actually is a good choice and opens up rds two-three.
BirdDogUni
February 16, 2023 at 02:09 pm
I don't know if he'll be a game changer, but he reminds me of Breece Hall 2.0 and like I said, I don't see Gutey drafting him, we could do worse. Imagine we take an OT or DT or OLBer who ends up a bust and Bijan turns out to be better than Breece Hall.
I don't agree with the Packers philosophy of not drafting RB, WR, TE in the first round, but that is their philosophy. I don't think there is a TE who deserves to go in the 1st round this year, but maybe a couple of WRs. If you believe Bijan is a game changer, then you should at least consider it, especially if you were to trade away Aaron Jones.
jannesbjornson
February 16, 2023 at 02:38 pm
How did their "philosophy" work in the Redzone this past season?
Oppy
February 16, 2023 at 03:56 pm
How did their "philosophy" work in the Redzone over the past 17 years?
The answer would be in the top 10 for red zone scoring percentage about 50% of those years. Most of the other years sitting between 10-15. about 3 years in bottom 1/3.
What does this all mean? Why are we putting philosophy in quotes? I don't know.
jannesbjornson
February 16, 2023 at 05:11 pm
Last season is the question. How to fix it would be to draft some offensive talent.
The_Baloney_Stops_Here
February 16, 2023 at 05:18 pm
They have to knock it off with the passes on the goalline. We went from Jones having 25 rush tds in 2019/2020 combined to just 6 combined rush tds in 2021/2022. I know its never as simple as just one thing, but if im looking to improve the redzone offense this is certainly where I would start. No more rpos that inevitably get turned into a pass. Run it and let's get the hell outta here.
jannesbjornson
February 16, 2023 at 06:06 pm
I would rather use Taylor off tackle than A.Jones who I would not pay. The O line has to create something and needs an upgrade at RT. Remember Davante drew a lot of attention in '21 and MVS was a tall target along with Equan. When Watson hit the field the endzone was more friendly. They need three new TEs badly to make this offense work.
More speed, another big WR. It is why I target Tillman, another guy trained by his former NFL player, father.
Oppy
February 17, 2023 at 11:37 am
If last year is the year in question, it may behoove your position to find some criteria that has a more demonstrable ill affect on red zone offense than a drafting "philosophy" which has been employed for over 15 years without consistently producing the same negative outcomes you are implying it is responsible for.
I'm not against drafting WR/TE/RB in the first two rounds, however, your logic is severely flawed. I believe when you ignore a bulk of data and imply causation based on a narrowly selected data set, that's commonly referred to as 'cherry picking'.
MainePackFan
February 16, 2023 at 01:12 pm
116: R4 P14 WR Andrei Iosivas - Princeton
Love this pick especially.
BirdDogUni
February 16, 2023 at 01:40 pm
He's almost an MVS clone, but I think he has a higher ceiling than MVS...
MainePackFan
February 16, 2023 at 01:52 pm
I agree. I see a little Christian Watson in him too. They're built the same. He even wears #9. It will be interesting to watch him at the combine.
BirdDogUni
February 16, 2023 at 01:56 pm
I like him because he's flying a bit under the radar right now, but I think in the right offense, he'll be a better pro than college WR... All about matchups and when your 3rd or 4th best WR can outrun #3 or #4 CBs/S you get those mismatches...
jannesbjornson
February 16, 2023 at 04:59 pm
A Watson profile with his 39" vertical and an All American track background in the Heptathlon. He is also very strong at 212lbs. Will this guy get past the 3rd round after the Combine? His hand usage needs work from the Senior Bowl. Some critique his separation skills. A 4.3 guy.
MainePackFan
February 16, 2023 at 06:56 pm
Benched 370 lbs. So he's smart, big, strong and fast. Smallish hands but catches everything so that's what matters. He won't get past the 3rd. Hell, he may not even make it to the 3rd. Watching his tape he really looked like Watson, right down to the #9..
BirdDogUni
February 16, 2023 at 10:58 pm
Priorities though right? Not everyone can go in the 1st and 2nd rounds... ;P That's why you get the Tyreek Hill's of the world, and Gronks, etc...
I'm sure after the interviews at the Combine, he'll fly up some draft boards, but it just depends on Gutey's priorities this year. I admit though, if we trade AR12, I would go all out getting Love as many weapons as possible. RBs/TEs/WRs... OT - OG - C... Then worry about filling out the defense, but I'm not the GM so I guess we'll have to see what Gutey has in store for us...
stockholder
February 17, 2023 at 07:10 am
Why draft the weapons for Love?
Gutey should have drafted them for Rodgers.
Every Gutey draft.
WR has come up.
Coldworld
February 17, 2023 at 09:01 am
Unless he bombs in testing, he looks like a prototypical candidate to fly up boards post combine.
The BIG difference between him and Watson is short area burst/quick feet. Watson has it, Iosivas does not—the reference to MVS is appropriate in that respect. He’s a guy who needs to be used deeper and to get separation through motion. He needs a lot of work in technique, but so does Watson, but he lacks the versatility and short area ability that Watson has.
I think he gets over drafted but I like him in the 4th or 5th. I just don’t see him fitting too well in a LaFleur offense including Watson unless we don’t use Watson as aggressively as I’d like. I don’t see him thriving on the short routes others had to run most of the time.
jannesbjornson
February 16, 2023 at 05:01 pm
A Princeton guy, so he is smart and will learn the scheme quickly.
stockholder
February 16, 2023 at 05:18 pm
Very good pick!
jannesbjornson
February 16, 2023 at 02:33 pm
I agree on pass rush. Their ILBs will never be confused with run stoppers.
CheesedDeadHead
February 16, 2023 at 12:45 pm
Rankings and numbers don't mean much in isolation. The Packers defense came in somewhere mid -league in overall defense. By some analyses, they were one of the teams that had the worst performance compared to talent on the defensive side. That to me seems to be the big yardstick to measure success, unfortunately it isn't always that easy so just quoting rankings is what most people go with. With all of the draft capital this team has invested in defense and the amount of cap space to retain/acquire players like Alexander, Clark, Douglas, Campbell, Smith and Amos you can't be satisfied with AVERAGE. Sure, the offense didn't score enough points, but that doesn't absolve the defense from the colossal underperformance of 2022. It's not the offense to blame or the defense to blame it is BOTH. Give me a DC by scheme and playcalling who either plays TO the players talents or plays UP that talent every single day before you re-up a DC who clearly makes everyone around them worse. Will Barry get it? well if he does he's the slowest learner on the Packers coaching staff and there's plenty of competition for that title.
stockholder
February 16, 2023 at 12:47 pm
The team needs to find a system that Barry is comfortable
Just stop right there. Comfortable is not the right answer!
The secondary isn't that good.
And I'd Find a trading partners right now.
The eagles traded WRs until they got the right ones.
Next they swapped draft picks.
See they understood you don't need to take a QB #1.
And they went right after the trench. (THE DL>)
The needs along the OL, The safeties!!!
The eagles won't wait to be comfortable.
They're aggressive with old school thinking.
Gutey needs to trade.
The Satus Que for playmakers.
For a DL that won't be last.
The_Baloney_Stops_Here
February 16, 2023 at 12:57 pm
At this point, I give SH an automatic thumbs up everytime due to the entertainment factor. Your comments are never boring.
LLCHESTY
February 16, 2023 at 09:58 pm
There's usually so much wrong structure wise I start to get a headache and just skip them.
Untylu1968
February 16, 2023 at 01:55 pm
The Eagles lost! Just wait until they have to pay Hurts the big bucks, along with all their other stars.
The_Baloney_Stops_Here
February 16, 2023 at 12:55 pm
Well we know its gonna be a zone heavy team with Barry at the helm, and thats fine. Theres nothing inherently wrong with zone defense. The problem is having the cornerbacks 12 yards off the ball and giving receivers free releases over the middle of the field. It puts safeties in a bind. In a zone defense the corner is supposed to cover the guy and then pass him off to the safety or linebacker. When the corner is that far off, the receiver is basically the safety's guy from the start with all the space in the world to work with. Its way too passive and puts everyone at a disadvantage. The Lovie Smith Bears teams ran the cover 2 as well as any team Ive ever seen. Unless it was 3rd and 20+, you would NEVER see the corners more than 5-7 yards off. The corner in a cover 2 is only covering the boundary/flat anyways so playing him 12 yards off is literally starting the play outside of his zone. Nothing about it makes any sense. Barry has to get over this fascination with off coverage. He has a shutdown corner and another with 4.29 speed. Live a little, Joe.
T7Steve
February 16, 2023 at 01:11 pm
Yes RTS. I don't think that you can get away from playing some zone. If you all you play is press with your backs to the QB these young guys will run all day in todays NFL.
I think your tight zone works especially well for the ILBs too (see 49ers).
The_Baloney_Stops_Here
February 16, 2023 at 05:26 pm
Im all for zone defense. The Legion of Boom played mostly cover 3 and owned offenses for years. But they did it aggressively. Richard Sherman wasnt playing in another time zone. He was right in the receiver's face all the time and they regularly shifted free safety Earl Thomas to the other side truly leaving Sherman on an island. Thats how you deploy elite cornerbacks. Dare the other team to come beat him. Barry does the opposite. His playcalling screams fear. No offense or defense ever won anything by playing scared.
CheesedDeadHead
February 16, 2023 at 01:21 pm
Excellent points RTS. What do you think Joe Barry would say in response? The only argument I can see is that the defense is designed to prevent/reduce big plays and make the offense consistently move the chains while waiting for them to make a mistake so either downs or a turnover come into play. Personally I didn't see a lot of that last year, I saw a lot of death by a thousand cuts.
jannesbjornson
February 16, 2023 at 02:46 pm
Either you make something happen, or it happens to you. They could snag four #1 s for Rodgers and it would not make a difference with this regime in charge. 5-8 minute drives by the opponent is not springing a trap.
The_Baloney_Stops_Here
February 16, 2023 at 06:10 pm
Bingo, Jannes. I often use the boxing analogy. Packers are so afraid of the haymaker that they just cover the face and accept body shot after body shot foolishly thinking they cant get knocked out that way. This past season, the Packers' defensive organs were metaphorically pounded into mush. Its amazing how much they concede in the name of not giving up the deep pass.
The_Baloney_Stops_Here
February 16, 2023 at 05:29 pm
I think he would give some diatribe about how its a passing league and big plays blah blah blah. And my response would be, "Well gee Joe, why is Jaire making $25 million per year then?" Is he elite or not? If hes elite, then you're playcalling sucks. If hes not elite then Green Bay seriously mismanaged their assets by paying hall of famer money to a guy whos not elite.
PatrickGB
February 16, 2023 at 01:35 pm
That’s it in a nutshell. Any good defense will adapt and adjust to the offense. It also should adapt to the skills of its players. Another thought is that the pass rush was taking too long to get to the QB.
crayzpackfan
February 16, 2023 at 01:50 pm
It's almost like he's running a (just making this up with a bit of hyperbole) Cover 5 with two safeties back 30 yards, two CB's back 18 yards, and MLB back 15 yards on every 3rd and 3-10. It is very frustrating. The DL doesn't even have time to get to the QB with the opposing team just having to take a 3 step drop and fire a quick 1st down. The run defense doesn't have a chance either. They only have two interior guys and two outside rushers while everyone else is playing deep right, center, and left field. The front 4 has like 2 seconds to create pressure! Our DC's philosophy needs to change RIGHT NOW. He's making the 3-4 defense look like a joke. If this is truly a "copycat" league, why does GB keep fishing with a spear instead of a net? No wonder our former DB coach had enough. The DC was making every coach underneath him look incompetent. I don't care about contract extensions for these coaches. If they provide this coming year what we seen last year, they gots to go.
T7Steve
February 16, 2023 at 02:15 pm
"If this is truly a "copycat" league, why does GB keep fishing with a spear instead of a net?"
Because he's copying the Brooklyn Nets defense?
I like the spearfishing analogy! However, if they had spears our DBs might actually be dangerous and efficient. LOL
KnockTheSnotOutOfYou
February 16, 2023 at 01:18 pm
The Packers need a quality starting Safety and sure seems like the Safety position is weak in the upcoming draft. I thought Rasul Douglas looked weak this year and was disappointing at CB. It is time for Rasul who even Rodgers said had great instincts and reminded him somewhat of Woodson to be moved to Safety? Move Rasul to Safety and select a CB to fortify the CB position? I would be all for this move.
Leatherhead
February 16, 2023 at 01:36 pm
""". Statistically, the pass defense ranked 6th in the league by allowing 197 yards per game but the team’s struggles in key situations, especially early in the season"""
So, now the narrative is "OK, Statistically we were at least average, or better in some areas, but it failed in key situations, especially early in the season."
So I'm going to look at which losses in the first half of the season had a secondary that struggled.
1 The Minnesota loss in the opener. Jefferson caught a lot of balls. 21 points. We scored 7. If we had held Jefferson to 0 catches, and still scored 7, we'd still have probably lost. And let's remember Jefferson had good games against quite a few teams.
2. The Giants, who had 218 passing yards and no TDs in the air.
3. The Jets, who had 99 passing yards.
4. The Commies, who had 201 net passing yards on 33 attempts (about 6.0 yards/attempt), and an interception.
5. The Bills. 25 passes, for 216 yards and two turnovers.
6. The Loins, who had one of the league's top passing attacks, threw it 26 times for 137 yards and an interception.
XXXXXXXXXXXXXX
Sorry Gil, not buying your premise. It's not supported by anything except biased observations. The facts show that even with our "struggles', it was still a pretty good pass defense. Only two teams gave up fewer completions, and we gave up fewer passing First Downs than 29 other teams. We were 4th in interceptions.
BirdDogUni
February 16, 2023 at 01:46 pm
Hell, all we have to do is add a couple pieces, have the young guys step up, pray someone pulls Dingle Barry's head out, and our defense won't be a problem, but an asset.
If we add a decent OLBer, S, and another good DL, our defense can springboard into the top 15 in the league without much trouble, if we can keep Dingle Barry from screwing it up...
Surely, some people will be talking to Dingle Barry this offseason... He can't go into next season as clueless as last season right?
Heyward
February 16, 2023 at 01:54 pm
"He can't go into next season as clueless as last season right?"
He can, and he will.
BirdDogUni
February 16, 2023 at 02:11 pm
Well, lets hope you're wrong then.
jannesbjornson
February 16, 2023 at 02:56 pm
No doubt, he's locked into his version of a losing scheme. If you played at any level of football, you could read the body language emanating from his squad. They are not onboard.
BirdDogUni
February 16, 2023 at 04:05 pm
I'm not even sure he has a scheme. I think what MaLF needs to do is hire an OC and give up play calling to run the %'in team...
I think Dingle Barry needs to hire a defensive play caller, because he really sucks at it...
I damn sure don't think it is personnel on either side of the ball... (except Play callers...)
Leatherhead
February 16, 2023 at 02:52 pm
Aside from the gratuitous slam at Barry, I'd agree that a few key pieces would really help.
First, getting Stokes and Gary back. Wyatt and Walker should improve in their second year. Just about everybody is back....Campbell, PSmith, Savage, Alexander, Douglas, Clark, Slaton, and we'd all be in the second year of a system, instead of starting over with some random guy who probably isn't going to do better than Barry.
Obviously, with Gary unavailable, we'd like to put some outside pressure on the QB. And we're going to need to replace Amos, most likely. So I think you'd have to be looking there.'
As far as springboarding into the top 15, we're already in the top 15 in quite a few statistical measures. This was an average-ish defense that did some things better than average. I don't get the venom for Barry.
jannesbjornson
February 16, 2023 at 02:57 pm
Third Year.
RCPackerFan
February 16, 2023 at 01:41 pm
My most aggravating part of this defense is when its 3rd and 5 or less, our DB's are playing 10 yards off the ball.
When our defense was playing at its best this season, the CB's were up in the WR's faces and not allowing them free releases down after down. The best game was definitely the Vikings game. If they want to form a defense next year, they need to study that game more then any others. And play that style of defense.
As the season wore on I feel like they figured out how to play Douglas more. And Alexander started to play better. He wasn't worried about his shoulder like he was at the beginning of the year.
We will likely have new safety's and probably at least 1 new CB. But if they play more aggressively, I think we will see a much better DB group.
BirdDogUni
February 16, 2023 at 01:53 pm
"If they want to form a defense next year, they need to study that game more then any others. And play that style of defense."
You think opposing offenses might be thinking that too?
The whole purpose of the defense is to stop opposing offenses, if you play the exact same defense with the exact same looks, you'll get beat worse than playing 10 yards off the WRs... The trick is to play to your players strengths and disguise the defense as much as possible. Dingle Barry can't disguise a mannequin at Halloween...
RCPackerFan
February 16, 2023 at 02:06 pm
Essentially what I'm saying is I want them to play more aggressively. They can play softer zones when its 3rd and really long. But when its 3rd or 4th and 2, I don't want the DB's 10 yards off the ball. Play off, but play 5 yards off. Giving up easy completions on 3rd and 4th downs happened way to much, allowing the opposing offenses to continue drives.
The Vikings game to me showed how much better the players can be if they are put in the right positions.
Leatherhead
February 16, 2023 at 03:01 pm
You want us to be more aggressive, but I'd remind you, that the name of the game is winning. For the defense, that means stopping drives and not giving up a lot of points.
The "easy completions on 3rd and 4th down" is something that's not supported by the data. We had one of the lowest 3rd down conversion rates in the league, and were better on 4th down than about 20 teams. We gave up the fewest passing first downs in the league.
In the movie Tin Cup, there's a great line: Sometimes, par is good enough to win. It's not about never giving up a completion,or a first down, or even a TD. It's about giving your team a chance to win. Considering that 16 out of our 17 opponents scored 28 or less, that was accomplished. We were among the leaders in interceptions, too
On 3rd and 2, you'd want to increase the odds that our opponent could throw it deep against tighter coverage? I'd rather give up quite a few of those shorter completions than that 40+ yarder.
I'm all for aggression. I'm an aggressive guy. But in the grand scheme of things, those few completions for first downs don't cost you as many games as those deep strikes over your head.
As far as the Minnesota game and being in the "right position", the right position was that we had a lead the entire game, and that didn't happen very often, because our offense was so anemic so often that most of the time we were in a one score game and the defense has to try to not make a big mistake .
Packer_Fan
February 16, 2023 at 04:37 pm
Analytics is not so helpful here. When the offense is not movingl the ball, the defense has to make stops. That didn't happen in a lot of games. Defense is about giving your team more opportunities. Not so much this year.
jannesbjornson
February 16, 2023 at 03:04 pm
Third and long you want 4-5 guys fast to the QB and have the CBs to press the WRs at the LOS. The safeties can play the ball in the air. The ball has to be out in 2.0-2.8 seconds in today's offenses and get the pass rush in the Qb's face. Usually, they will check it down and if the LBs can tackle, you hold them.
Leatherhead
February 16, 2023 at 03:59 pm
So if the Packers were one of the better teams in the league on third down, what does that tell you?
Coldworld
February 16, 2023 at 05:10 pm
Possibly that there’s more talent than what we do on first and second downs aloes us to show?
That’s a talented group. They should be better. When that happens, either we are overestimating the talent or deploying it poorly.
BirdDogUni
February 16, 2023 at 03:47 pm
Lol... Then say it. ;P
RCPackerFan
February 16, 2023 at 04:57 pm
I thought I did.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
BirdDogUni
February 16, 2023 at 10:45 pm
We have to try and find humor or we're done for... ;P
RCPackerFan
February 17, 2023 at 07:08 am
No doubt.
Unfortunately there are to many that are already done cuz they can't find humor in anything.
Packer_Fan
February 16, 2023 at 04:24 pm
Next to the Rodgersl issue, this is the biggest issue from last year. Gil, you hit the most important issues. The soft zone did not play to the players strengths, and Jerry Gray and Barry did not see eye to eye. And the players sensed this and during the middle of the season gave up a bit.
In the Giantsl game and for sure in the Titans game, Barry let the QB's dink and dunk the ball down the field. Against poor QB's, Barry should have been aggressive and press more. But the soft zone just let the QB do his job and gain confidence.
Think of how many games opposing defenses changed their tactics at half and began to press our receivers. Did Barry EVER make any adjustments at half or during the season?
I am assuming that Rodgers will be traded, we will need the defense to win a few games for the team. Just like this year. But I just see Barry always reverting to his soft zone tendencies next year. And then get dumped by LaFluer. Just another tendency of reacting too late.
Duhawk_47
February 16, 2023 at 04:46 pm
In following this Packers defense/Joe Barry debate closely for a while now, I'm starting to wonder if we are overlooking the importance of run defense as it relates to overall defensive performance.
While Barry's pass defense philosophy has left a lot to desire, one point we've revisited ad nauseam is the importance of winning the trenches. If we are giving up 5ypc on the ground (as we did in 2022) and failing to get pressure on the opposing QB (as appeared to be the case following Gary's ACL), I'd posit that our defensive woes stem from the play of the DL group as much as they did our secondary.
Stats involving GBP defensive performance against play action are proving hard to come by....that said, if we're getting repeatedly gashed in the run game, there's reason to believe that the play-action passing component of the opposing offenses' gameplans becomes much more effective.
Stop the run and make their QB win the game with his arm....that's when the 2 High, off-coverage plan becomes effective and it's reasonable to play so conservative....
Oh and also playing with a lead....which requires a competent offense LOL. Best comment section on the internet. Thank you for existing.
jannesbjornson
February 16, 2023 at 05:26 pm
They paid a guy big cash to play the Nose, drafted a DT with #29 and used #22 on Walker to chase. Hard to stop the run with two guys with their hands in the ground and timid LBs. They didn't give Slaton enough reps
and counted on Lowry in run stop which is not his strength as a DE/five. They overpaid him , so they had to play him on early downs. They must get Pass Rush, number one. At least two edge guys or a quick twitch 3 tech. Jalen Hurts shows a 3 way option guy who doesn't need to present play action to burn a defense off tackle or inside with the run.
LLCHESTY
February 16, 2023 at 10:03 pm
Slaton got pushed around quite a bit on double teams too. His hand fighting has a long way to go. When he stacks and sheds quickly but it isn't consistent at all. I wouldn't mind them drafting some competition for him.
jannesbjornson
February 17, 2023 at 07:21 am
I have Benton as my #3 pick. A quick 3 tech for pass rush and play more four man fronts with the hands in the dirt. They have the two ILBs to cover the second tier.
Oppy
February 17, 2023 at 07:29 am
The worst offense listed here, if true, is that the Packers played a player more than they should have just because they paid him too much money.
There once was a time when coaches coached, and general managers handled contracts and acquisitions. In Green Bay specifically, it used to be a great advantage that there wasn't an owner interfering with the coaches, telling them they have to play this player because they spent $$$ on him.
If what you're saying is true- that he's being played simply because he got payed like a starter- it's all broken now.
Duhawk_47
February 17, 2023 at 10:39 am
Bingo. I'd personally like to see more true 3-4 fronts esp. on running downs. It feels like we've been in Nickle/Dime packages since Pettine took over.
The_Baloney_Stops_Here
February 16, 2023 at 06:35 pm
That can also be traced back to Barry. I dont know how many times i saw this defense in nickel on early downs with the dbs way off the ball while the offense would be in base run formations. I dont care if you have Ted Washington and Keith Traylor up the middle, those guys can only take on double teams for so long before they wear down. And the Packers didnt have those guys. Thsy have Kenny Clark (whos not really built like a true nose tackle) and Dean Lowry (whos a 5 technique and not really built to be a run game anchor). Even on obvious running downs, the defense was usually playing pass. Just conceding yards for no reason other than the fear of getting beat over the top. Absolute madness. Now look at the 49ers. Opposing offenses could be in 3 receiver sets and the 49ers still play base defense. Theyll gladly take a disadvantage in the secondary in favor of controlling the line of scrimmage. Theyre smart enough to realize that the best way to limit the big play isnt to play soft coverage, its to collapse the pocket and make the qb get rid of the ball quickly before any deep route can take form. Seahawks Legion of Boom defense played that way too. Nickel defense didnt exist in their playbook. It was base defense all the time and they mainly only ran cover 3 or cover 1.
Duhawk_47
February 17, 2023 at 10:57 am
Might be nice to see Clark taking more reps at 3Tech again, as well.
greengold
February 16, 2023 at 06:10 pm
We have one good coach on this football team.
Rich Bisaccia.
One. Maybe two with Montgomery coaching DL… maybe. While I know I’m overstating this off the cuff, the point remains, no real position coach outside of STs has really set themselves apart as high calibre, elite or enviable.
Anybody juiced about our OL play the last 3 years? WR coaching? What sets the poor DB coaching apart?
Was it bad DB coaching? With one of the best in the game clearly at odds with DC Joe Barry to the point he leaves at his earliest opportunity? Seems more like a DC who can’t seem to get anything right in terms of scheme & leadership.
Anyone super impressed with Matt LaFleur as HC? The guy caved to Mr. Darkness. Highly doubtful the players respect him after this latest turd of a season, and total lack of leadership.
Change it all out. Let Gutekunst, our GM, pick his preferred Head Coa… Coac… … uh, never mind.
This is indeed looking like a significant cluster. Who acts of our own Board of Directors refuses to begin an earnest review and take action. How much bank are they pocketing?
Save for Gutekunst & his Personnel Department, we’re seeing a major leadership vacuum top to bottom, and that includes the Packers Board of Directors, Mark Murphy, Matt LaFleur.
Ps. Gutey coughs up another R3 dud and he’s off my good list. FFS. Stop wasting important picks, Brian. R3s are important. That’s something Gutekunst must fix himself. The total failure there in his tenure is ridiculous.
And, I’m a Gutekunst fan. Again, overstating, but, that’s a pretty big recurring problem, and there really is no reason for it. He makes brilliant picks everywhere else but R3:
Sean Rhyan - we don’t know and won’t for a couple years, but, not one snap in 2023.
Amari Rodgers - epic dud.
Josiah Deguara - a present for his HC who is not a GM. They were all full of themselves thinking we were an H-back away from winning it all.
Jace Sternberger - probably listening to AC/DC’s “Have A Drink On Me.”
Oren Burks - ugh
Sheesh!!! I seriously could have done better. Many of us here could have done better, each of those years in R3.
MooPack
February 16, 2023 at 09:03 pm
Want to throw around stats. Try these on for size. Efficiency. Offenses were definitely that against the Packers. Number of completions don't mean squat when they go way over average per. Yards the same when they are not needed. Interceptions would matter more if the offense is going to do something with them. I'll give you that. This Offense doesn't. Passer rating is nothing to beat chest about. Average at best. YAC, again, the average per discounts this lackluster scheme that allows a lot of yardage on the pass itself. If the adage that football is a game of inches is true, the Packers lose that in almost all phases. Almost everyone sees this. And yes, the eyes see this accurately with most.
Rushing:
28th in YPC.
26th in rushing 1st down %.
Passing:
21st in pass % allowed.
27th (tied) for yds/att.
27th (tied) for sacks.
17th in 1st down % passing. Offenses don't need this when the Packers are 26th in rushing first down %
These don't mean shiite when you have the above.
We were 3rd in fewest completions.
6th in yards.
5th in interceptions.
2nd in % of passes intercepted.
15th in opposing passer rating.
2nd in yards after catch (YAC)
I'd suggest the Defense do the opposite, Like George Castanza.
"Yes, I will do the opposite. I used to sit here and do nothing, and regret it for the rest of the day, so now I will do the opposite, and I will do something!" - Seinfeld.